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  1. #1

    Default Validating Color

    Hi all, first time poster here but I've been in the Screenprinting Industry 25+ years now.

    My question is in regards to color validation. We've never done a good job of managing color in our Ink Department so it's my job to clean it up.

    Our Quality Department suggested I work toward GPI Specifications of validating color via ∆E which I've tested on a few select jobs but the process is painstaking.

    Does anyone here validate color beyond the standard eye approval process with a Light Booth? I'm interested moreso in instrumentational color matching such as measuring ∆E (CIE94 spec) with an Electro spectrophotometer.

    Also, does anyone actually validate the straight colors coming from the Ink Supplier before introducing them into circulation?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Premium Member
    Andymac's Avatar

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    SGIA - Workshops - Color Management

    this is the digital colour management course, but I know SGIA run it for screenprinters too, you just need to find out when, or get in touch with me and i will hook you up with some colour guys from nazdar who run the training programs.

    But their programs (called G7) are all about CYMK printing as I understand it, not sure how much they relate to spot colour matching on textiles.

    Some ink lines provide pantone base colours and match pretty good to spot colours using a scale for measurement. I wouldn't have a clue where you would start trying to perfectly match spec colour on shirts.
    Andymac

    services www.squeegeeville.com
    equipment www.tmiscreenprinting.com

    Todo es empezar.

  3. #3

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback Andy.

    We're a decal manufacturer who does a fair amount of work for the Class 8 Trucking Industry and offer a wide range of self adhesive products ranging from nameplates to decals to membrane switches.

    Some of our Clients have started to get more and more picky about color deviation and want assurances that we can reproduce color run to run without noticeable deviation. We do quite well in this area but some are looking for physical evidence to back up our color claims which is why CIE94 is slowly being integrated.

    Since pretty much every printer here is male it doesn't hurt to have an instrument measure and validate color anyway.

    We've an account at SGIA and I've some contacts in Eastern Canada whom are helping as well. I just thought given the scope of this site that maybe someone already had a head start on the work I'm doing.

  4. #4
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    Andymac's Avatar

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    Ah the Coquitlam guys, I met some people from your company 2 years ago at the SGIA show - sorry I thought you were textillions. You have a SIAS, or were lookingat one of the inlines at our booth? (RH Solutions)

    I don't think too many here are that into colour matching job to job.

    I get your problem. the only solution to maintaining match colour job to job is to mix a big assed container of ink. But you also need to seriously measure your thinners and maintain the same mesh/squeegee combo.

    the biggest problem you will encounter is know it all punk digital design shits who think colour is consistent material to material, process to process and somehow matches their monitor, and all this after a print has been in the sun for a year or two.

    I feel your pain. Luckily I don't deal with that type of shit anymore - although I can tell war stories from doing interior bank makeovers for CIBC coast to coast that were redone because one stupid worker decided to thin the ink one day....and then there was the BCAA stickers that didn't match some sample on an envelope that didn't match their spec colour...but i digress...

    email me if you want a hookup with Mike Ruff at Nazdar, they are the guys who developed the G7 colour system. I think you want to be able to analyse both process and spot colour mixes.
    Andymac

    services www.squeegeeville.com
    equipment www.tmiscreenprinting.com

    Todo es empezar.

  5. #5

    Default

    lol I'm sure you have war stories, maybe we should exchange them sometimes because I have a few good ones myself.

    Yup, we're the Coquitlam guys. I hope your SIAS' are better than ours because ours is a bit of a lemon. Overall it does the job but registration accuracy is spotty due to the horribly inaccurate Infrared material registration system.

    As for our color matching issues, I think it's more a child product of a Sales Department selling it rather than the Customer specifically requesting it (in most cases). You wouldn't believe some of the crap we've had to reprint around here since getting involved in the Olympics, it would literally make your head spin.

    The people driving the color management to this degree have no idea what their asking for but since they outrank me I have to do my due diligence and just go with it.

    Not only do you have to worry about squeegee and mesh but there's everything else that comes with it such as older various makes/models of presses, differing squeegee angles (I reduced one press by close to 10% angle last week alone), peel, off contact, ink consistency and that's just at the press.

    I've also noticed color deviation in the inks coming in the door (Inktech) but as of yet have not started testing them for consistency which is on it's way.

    I'm currently looking to replace my mesh as well with a lower elongation mesh so the count remains close to the count once tensioned and glued.

    I'll certainly contact you when I need to talk to the Nazdar guys though, thanks for the offer.

  6. #6
    Premium Member
    Andymac's Avatar

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    Adprint Markings! from the good ol' days (80s/early90s...we were in Vancouver then. On Hamilton till they yuppified it, then Langley, then Pt Kells, then I sold and got out)

    I don't have a Sias. Ron at RH has some kind of relationship with them. Not sure what's happening in italy these days.

    Do you buy Sefar mesh? I can sell direct if you want to try some.

    Sounds like your sales guys need 'the talk'.

    Good luck with it.
    Andymac

    services www.squeegeeville.com
    equipment www.tmiscreenprinting.com

    Todo es empezar.

  7. #7

    Default

    You hit the nail on the head, the old Ad-Print Markings back when we were on Stainsbury. We moved to Coquitlam and adopted Ampco as our name since it was our sister company. Once amalgamated under one roof it made sense to carry the name since it's what Paccar was familiar with.

    As for mesh we're currently using Sefar @:
    • 195 - 48 micron
    • 305 - 34 micron
    • 330 - 34 micron
    • 380 - 34 micron

    We also use a bit of Stainless Steel as well for Dielectric on Membrane Switches and for Sublimation (water based) prints.

    The Sefar is great mesh but if I'm going to go through all these exercises I've been tasked with as of late, I want to explore a few options and see what fits.

    I've had a few screens brought in stretched with Dynamesh as apparently it has a lower elongation than Sefar and the additional micron thread diameter may mean we get a bit more mileage out of the screens. Of course this is all speculation at this point as I've quantified none of it as of yet myself.

    I can also get it substantially cheaper than what I'm currently paying which is always a plus.

  8. #8
    squeegeethree's Avatar

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    Default

    Lol, Truckers now are color critics. The second those decals get put on a truck you can no longer guarantee a color match. There are WAY too many factors outside and on the road that will effect to pigments you have printed.

  9. #9

    Default

    It's not the Truckers that are complaining. In fact it's the Clients who order the least or are the hardest to maintain that seem to complain the most.

    For the Class 8 Industry (and I'd guess Off Highway, Automotive, Military and possibly Marine), most spec 3m materials and 3m Inks to get the 00ber "Matched Component Warranty"; 3m Inks, 3m Materials, 3m Laminates.

  10. #10
    squeegeethree's Avatar

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    I used to be a house painter and even the best paint companies won't guarantee a 100% match between gallons of the same color. They always recommend you mix gallons of the same color together to insure even color. So asking ink companies to do the same seems impossible. Then you have to have your screens all exactly the same tension from job to job. Your print and flood pressures and speeds etc.

    If it's the small run customers that are giving you the most problems then maybe you need to switch to a large format digital for those jobs. Digital is a little easier to maintain in that you can save customer profiles for substrates. Then as long as the substrate producer doesn't stop making the substrate or go out of business you can match with a lot more exactness.

    In our shop we store formulas by weight for customers that may reorder something. But a .5% change in an off white color can be noticeable so we still always have to alway double check with the eyeballs.

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