Testify and a Noob process

[donationdesign]

Mark is a great guy and gave me a shot at doing some of my first screened posters and I hope to continue to work with him in the future, but unfortunately he isn't always working with a budget and after a few posters, without a good following as a designer (I'm maybe a step beyond a noob, just barely) or access to the band's fan base (when they have a solid one) you begin to realize it can be very tough to recoup your expenses by selling your half of the run.

There are several threads debating price structures on here, but its tough to make a consensus. There are artists who have been around along time and earned a reputation that can aid them when discussing budgets and there are newer people like you and I who more than anything want an excuse to print and develop their skills.

We, too often uncut other designer/printers and ourselves to have the chance to print something. Then after we have printed several posters we begin to realize we're losing money and approach our contacts searching for a budget we didn't ask for (or seem to need) before. Then our contacts may question why this was never an issue before and either have to find a budget to cover our costs or move on to the next noob eager to just have an excuse to print.

That transition from noob willing to take a loss for the excuse to print and amateur looking to recoup at least his/her costs can be a tough one. As I am finding out.

[eyepeace]

Mark is great - very easy to work with and one of the cool things about Mark is he seems to be a fan of the music and the posters....
I must say in our conversations we were both very upfront about where we were coming from and he is open to negotiation. If he can't do something he can't do it.
I see his side. He's trying to run a business promoting his shows. I'm not sure where posters are on his list of must have things but I have to imagine they're not always at the very top of the list.

Originally it seemed like this model is fairly standard. If I at all felt that someone else was being grossly undercut I wouldn't do that job. I've had it done to me for other things in the past and it's disappointing to say the least.

At the same time I have to acknowlege that it is also a valid point that any time anyone does a gigposter for $0 payment for creative it sets a bad precedent (I'm not talking about costs - IMHO costs should always be paid for unless it's for a charity or nfb).

At the same time, if someone is willing to take the chance on noobs for little budget then so be it. That's a crapshoot and you get what you pay for. Look at my case - Mark could have easily ended up with crap considering.

I dunno. I feel like I could go around in circles on this forever.

Ultimately I feel like if you show your clients you're worth it, through quality and dependability, they will work with you on budget.

[donationdesign]

In no way was I trying to cut on you or Mark I understand both of your positions (especially yours cause I've been there/am there). And I know Mark fully appreciates the work and does what he can, when he can for compensation.

That said it is unfortunate that in this field (graphic design), and more specifically gigposters there has been a standard set of low to no compensation for work. In most other areas of work you would never have someone requesting work from a stranger with no compensation. You wouldn't find a contractor in the world willing to side your garage for free or just for the work experience or exposure, but in this field you have people approach you all the time with "no budget, but great exposure". Or with $50 budgets for an album cover.

In other professions if the potential client has no money the potential client receives no service, but for some reason in this field you don't need any money to get some form of work. And yes it is a crap shoot, but a lot of times that pays off with up and coming artists.

Screen printed posters are even worse because when you split the run your giving the band or the end recipient free merch which they can potentially make money off. No one (that I am aware of) is printing free shirts or pressing free CDs, but in a lot of cases free posters has become a standard and the end recipient makes money off something they haven't paid for.

This could go on and on and there are plenty of threads here taking this topic to the nth degree. I shouldn't be one to talk because I am one of those who takes part in some of these interactions, but now that I'm where I'm at I would like to transition out of free and low-pay jobs to something that pays reasonable rates, closer to what my corporate clients pay. That work unfortunately can be hard to come by.

[eyepeace]

In no way was I trying to cut on you or Mark I understand both of your positions.

No worries, man. I didn't think you were.

the end recipient makes money off something they haven't paid for.

Ya - I think you hit it there.

[Pfahlert Creative Labs]

I kind of feel like it would be worthwhile to create some sort of simplified Gigposters "pricing and ethical guidelines". Tools this community can turn to for a starting point.

Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines

I appreciate your point of view on the topic, here's a helpful resource for ALL creative done, gig poster design included. Every job is unique as are the client's budgets, but a very unhealthy pattern to get into is free design.

Mark is a nice guy, but I doubt I'll ever be able to do the set up again.

Keep up the great work.

[eyepeace]

Thanks, Clue. (can I call you that?). I feel a connection. Come on in for the real thing.

I guess I should have been more clear - that book is actually where I was getting the idea from - I've got the handbook right here. It's invaluable as a starting point when I don't have any idea how to price a job among other things...

I was thinking more along the lines of a more specific to gigposters kind of thing. A meeting of the gigposter minds so to speak. Learning from past experience kind of thing. It was just shooting from the hip talk really. You could argue that's all here in the forums already anyway. And, for that matter, in the GAG handbook if you read between the lines.

[Pfahlert Creative Labs]

Thanks, Clue. (can I call you that?). I feel a connection. Come on in for the real thing.

I guess I should have been more clear - that book is actually where I was getting the idea from - I've got the handbook right here. It's invaluable as a starting point when I don't have any idea how to price a job among other things...

I was thinking more along the lines of a more specific to gigposters kind of thing. A meeting of the gigposter minds so to speak. Learning from past experience kind of thing. It was just shooting from the hip talk really. You could argue that's all here in the forums already anyway. And, for that matter, in the GAG handbook if you read between the lines.

I'll also answer to Matt, Duder and or Goob.

I hear you on the above, I personally found that just diving in is in many ways a great self education; learn from mistakes, remember to do what worked great, etc. The forums here ARE a GREAT resource fo sho.

[Andymac]

Just an observation.....

I think this poster thing is kind of like having a fast car, and then deciding to race it.

when you start out, you spend all this time and money and effort to get to the point where you can run with the others who have been doing it a while. And you want to get off the street and do it competitively to see if you really have the juice.

Some eventually have sponsors. Some of them win enough they get prize money, which still really doesn't cover the costs. some keep going and get recognized as champs at whatever level and get to move up, and money comes to them, and they're doing what they want and love.

others take jobs that allow them to participate, because deep down they just love to be around it and race, and would rather have the chance to make a bit than to sit on the outside and not do it at all.

others give up and become cab drivers - now they get to drive all the time, but its not really racing.

[eyepeace]

Wow, pullin out all the stops with the analogy - carried it all the way through to the end.
I'm impressed.

Here's my car I'm bringin to the races...


Seriously, though, that probably made more sense than anything I've read on the subject here.

[windflame]

Seriously, though, that probably made more sense than anything I've read on the subject here.