1st CMYK experiment / sticker shock

[Jeansie]

Hello all! Although this is my first post, I've been visiting the site for a while and have learned so much through the forums. I've been pretty successful doing 1- & 2-color t-shirts & shopping bags, etc., but I'd like to move on to something more challenging. I've been trying to work out this process color thing and I think I've come to a point where I need to ask a submit a few questions to the experts.

I have a series of 12 collages created in photoshop that I would like to print and sell. Ideally, I'd like to print/release 50 a month, 1 design per month. Here's what I have going on so far: 230 yellow mesh screens, diazo emulsion, speedball process poster ink + extender base, 200 sheets of #110 smart white french paper and a little press set-up (hinge, clamp, magnet attached to a work bench).

I did my separations in photoshop. I used 55 LPI with ellipses and set each stencil at a 23.5 degree angle from the others (Y=12, M=38.5, C=62, K=85.5).

With my t-shirt designs, I've used the printer at kinko's to print my film stencils, but since this is process work with halftones, I called around to local print shops til I found someone who sounded like they knew what I was talking about. I copied my files to a flash drive and took them over.

He asked emulsion up or down? I told him "up." He said to be sure, because depending on how I expose my screens, it could make my dots too small and screw the whole thing up - So, that's one question: When I expose my screens I will lay the screen squeege-side-up elevated slightly over a dark surface, lay down the film positive making sure everything is lined up nicely for registration later, cover with glass and expose... Right? Is that emulsion up? Am I putting my stencil on the wrong side?

Next he asked about the LPI. I told him I separated them at 55 LPI. He said he thinks their minimum is either 60 or 85 (he said he'd have the prepress lady call me later, but I haven't heard from her yet). Is 60 too high for what I'm doing? What if the minimum is 85? Either way, the original image would need to be re-separated, right?

Finally, I asked him to estimate my price. He said that each film would cost $26, so I will need to spend $104 for stencils? Really? The separations I gave him were formatted to the paper size with registration marks outside of the margins, but my actual image area is only 11x11 and I would trim the paper after printing. I asked if they could print on smaller film and save a little money, but their next size down is 10xsomething and I really don't want to reduce my image or lose my registration marks. Plus those would only save $6 each for compromised work. I found a place online where you upload and they send you film, but it was only a little cheaper and it looked a little sketchy. I know that you have to invest in your projects, but as I said, I'm new to this and I don't know if the price is reasonable or not.

Please advise! Any suggestions regarding drying racks or clothesline methods are also appreciated. I'm fighting off discouragement and anxiety because I know I have to try this. I understand the theory and I feel like this is something I could be successful doing. Plus, I am a crafty bitch and I don't mind hustlin' or DIY to get shit done. I think 50 a month is entirely reasonable for a first project - What do you think?

[halfmassive]

How much experience do you have with screen printing on paper? If this is your first poster project I think that doing a high detail cmyk job can be overly ambitious and make the learning curve much steeper. Also when you expose your screens are you using any foam to help compress the film to the glass? This may cause registration/ exposure problems with the halftones if the film isn't sitting flat or the screen is being stretched by the weight of the glass.
As for the films I can't imagine the shop having a minimum halftone count for printing your films. If you are going to keep on making posters I would just buy a printer for your films. I got my epson 1400 for about $150 and 100 13x19 films is about $100. Printing my own films and not having to run to the blue print shop every time I needed films was well worth the money and paid for itself pretty quickly.

and you should go premium. You'll help support the site and you will also get a lot more help, which is well worth the $20.

[ZELIG]

Halfmassive is correct, but then again you can be the guy who gets it right the first time or while printing serendipitously makes a beautiful mistake that looks way better than your intended image....or you could easily make a horrible inky mess. Good luck however you proceed.

[gozo]

I am a complete novice over here, only joined up a couple of months ago, however my first investment was going premium. It was the best bargain I ever had, not only am I learning how to screenprint, but also thanks to Andy's infinate wisdom, I fouind out what and who the Caganers are.

[vrooooom]

Not sure, but it sounds like you went to an actual service bureau that's printing film separations. A reprographics store might set you up with printed mylar. You can also ask around at sign shops that do screen printing. There's a place here in Austin that will do an 18x24 on accuart/accublack films for $10, but it's not advertised heavily.

If you can manage it, try to get your own printer. Sell some stuff!

[Andymac]

IN premium, I think I put up a 4 part story on printing fine detail/process colour.

It's long and complicated.

The costs for the film sound about right. the guys are right about making your own films. they may not be as crisp as the service bureau imagesetter output, but you will pay the printer off in 2 or 3 print runs. Your exposing method sounds backwards. Usually, you order 'emulsion up right reading film positive' and when exposing, the order would be lamp /glass/emulsion up film/screen (bottom side sitting on film - emulsion to emulsion) and then foam or vacuum blanket. Go look at some process threads to see how people expose. you can do it backwards (MMM does it that way), but your dots won't have their crispest part on the bottom.

RE the line screen, you need a higher mesh screen (300 or higher) to form the best dots, and buy some actual process ink. If you are trying to print on rough paper, you may have to reduce your mesh count, but you should also reduce your line screen.

What I would suggest, is instead of jumping in to do your first job at size, get the shop to do one set of 4 colours ganged on one sheet - images maybe 3"x3". then try printing that with your combo of equipment and methods and see what the result looks like. If you can't expose the film, and you can't register tight, and can't print a fine dot, and hold a fine dot with you methods, you need to rethink things.

Oh, and search and read all the 4 colour posts, and also go look on screenweb.com, they have all sorts of articles on how to print process, stochastic, index etc. There's more than one way to get there.

ps don't give up, stay clever, post your results. And if you want to keep the info flowing and the GP helpline on your side, go premium, support the site.

[Jeansie]

How much experience do you have with screen printing on paper?

Honestly... Practically none. I've tested my t-shirt designs on paper, but that was with a 110 screen on regular old scrapbook paper. Nothing like what I'm attempting. I might be totally crazy to want to try this, but I haven't made any commitments so if I have to rethink the whole thing, that's OK - doing it right is way more important to me than doing it fast.

I got my epson 1400 for about $150 and 100 13x19 films is about $100. Printing my own films and not having to run to the blue print shop every time I needed films was well worth the money and paid for itself pretty quickly.

Definitely a purchase I will make... Will something like this do the job? http://www.amazon.com/Epson-WorkForc...5133623&sr=1-1

Halfmassive is correct, but then again you can be the guy who gets it right the first time or while printing serendipitously makes a beautiful mistake that looks way better than your intended image....or you could easily make a horrible inky mess. Good luck however you proceed.

THANK YOU! We'll see what happens! I'll be posting pix as I work through the process...

Not sure, but it sounds like you went to an actual service bureau that's printing film separations. A reprographics store might set you up with printed mylar. You can also ask around at sign shops that do screen printing. There's a place here in Austin that will do an 18x24 on accuart/accublack films for $10, but it's not advertised heavily.

I talked to a couple folks today & will call a few more sign shops, service bureaus & screen printing places here locally on Monday to see what they offer. Ultimately, I'll be buying a printer & printing my own film.

Your exposing method sounds backwards. Usually, you order 'emulsion up right reading film positive' and when exposing, the order would be lamp /glass/emulsion up film/screen (bottom side sitting on film - emulsion to emulsion) and then foam or vacuum blanket

I don't know why this part is so confusing for me? My brain, she's not so good. It sounds like I have my screen upside down... The bottom side you're referring to is the opposite of the squeegee-side, right? So the screen sits squeegee-side down on top of dark foam with the film positive positioned on top and held in place by glass with the light suspended above.

RE the line screen, you need a higher mesh screen (300 or higher) to form the best dots, and buy some actual process ink. If you are trying to print on rough paper, you may have to reduce your mesh count, but you should also reduce your line screen.

CRAP! All I have are the 230's for now - are they totally out of the question, you think? From what I've read, the LPI is roughly 1/4 the mesh count. I know that the higher the LPI, the smaller the dots will be. And that the screen mesh must be fine enough to hold the dot. Could I reduce my LPI and still use the 230? The ink is this stuff: Speedball Permanent Acrylic Screen Printing Poster Ink - BLICK art materials - I haven't cracked it open yet, so I could return it and get something else that will blend better if anyone has a recommendation.

What I would suggest, is instead of jumping in to do your first job at size, get the shop to do one set of 4 colours ganged on one sheet - images maybe 3"x3". then try printing that with your combo of equipment and methods and see what the result looks like. If you can't expose the film, and you can't register tight, and can't print a fine dot, and hold a fine dot with you methods, you need to rethink things.

Fucking GENIUS! I WILL DO THIS! It does bring up another newb question tho... Would I have to go back to the original image, crop it to the new smaller size and then make new separations? OR since the LPI is based on the screen mesh (which won't change), could the existing separations simply be reduced proportionally to the new size and the math stay intact?

don't give up, stay clever, post your results. And if you want to keep the info flowing and the GP helpline on your side, go premium, support the site.

I CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR YOUR GUIDANCE!! I will definitely go premium, not just for the added benefits but also because the site is such a great resource for folks at all different levels. I'll do more and more research, read the book and plan a cheese-tasting outing so I can nail down a favorite.

[patoakes]

Try resizing your image, then halftoning at 45 LPI. Should print on a 230 fine. Do not resize your original seps!! Also, those angles could be tweaked a bit. Y = 22, M = 52, C = 82, K = 112. That's how I've done it with good results. I add 50% transparent extender to the cyan and magenta. I think they print really dark out of the jar. Start with Speedball acrylic, it'll do the trick.
Good luck. Go premium and welcome aboard. Lot of smart peoples around here.

[ASPrintingPress]

oh Jeansie!

[Jeansie]

Try resizing your image, then halftoning at 45 LPI. Should print on a 230 fine. Do not resize your original seps!! Also, those angles could be tweaked a bit. Y = 22, M = 52, C = 82, K = 112. That's how I've done it with good results. I add 50% transparent extender to the cyan and magenta. I think they print really dark out of the jar. Start with Speedball acrylic, it'll do the trick

Sounds like solid advice - I'll give it a try! Thanks!

oh Jeansie!

*blushes* You found me! I'm freaking out, man!

Hey, what do you think about using photo corners (like the little adhesive things you mount photos with in an old school album) for registration?