The official "Not" FNM series discussion.

[JustinHelton]

Originally Posted by lil_tuffy

The biggest problem I have are the series that require the artist to donate 30-50% of the run to the band to be sold at the show (plus additional posters to the club for promotion).

Although I have participated in these in the past I rarely do any more (Secret Serpents series like Melvins and a ew select others being the exception).

As someone mentioned in the other thread, providing merch to a band for free is just stupid. Yes, you can sell the remainder of your run but that's a hard gamble, especially if you don't live in the city where the show took place.

If an artist is creating merch to be sold by the band at the show and/or afterwards, the artist should be paid for their work. Simple as that.

Again, all of this is disclosed when these series are organized and no one is forcing you to do this work. But generally speaking, I think the X% of run free to the band is bad for the poster making community.

Totally agreed...I have done a few, but in the end it causes more time spent doing stuff for someone that may or may not pay off, which sucks. Its caused me a number of headaches before and I cant stand having to eat shipping costs...that shit adds up.

[loco]

I have always stayed away from this type of thing. The ones that I did do was maily because I wanted to do a poster or I really liked the band.
It alot of leg work on a gamble. You can make your money back over time and that fine if you can wait it out. When you do all the work and you have to spread it around and on top of that pay the shipping it makes it real hard to see and profit down the line.
I think Ron has a valid point and it's should be debated.

-loco

[birdsandrabbits]

i think there are bigger implications of these tour series' as well.

aside from the artist having to design, run, ship, and eat all the costs right off the bat, there is the issue that it gives bands/labels/promoters the idea that they can get shit for free now...why pay their local poster person when someone is willing to do it for free? I'm not in this situation (since i do work pretty much exclusively for little bands playing in art galleries and garages) but the folks that have been busting their asses for years now to establish some ground rules for the poster community, set standards, set a value for what they do (especially in their city,) and in turn make a half decent living out of printing...they are gonna get screwed. hard. free posters or having to pay someone. free wins every time.

i don't think it's in anyway out of line to say that "merch series" poster designers shouldn't at least have their hard costs covered...paper, ink, and shipping. if these series posters are going out as merch, and the organizers/bands are hand picking the artists, then they want you for a reason. you have a value. don't throw that away. if you've been picked, and you have to send them 30-40 percent of a run, at 10 bucks a pop, they only have to sell 5 to get you 50 bucks to cover costs. they obviously like your art, have faith in it, or you're some boner-inducing artist that everyone wants right now. 50 bucks to get your stuff isn't out of line, especially when it's making a back end of 350 bucks for a band that didn't have to do anything for it, except open a package at the venue and put it at the table. you have to hustle, they don't. built in audience.

i've done a couple tour series' myself. i'm not hating on them, but it seems that it's now becoming the trend. i'm worried its a trend that is getting going for the wrong reasons and establishing a standard for what posters (i.e.: our work) is worth...which seems to be coming up nothing. although i don't rely on it for cash, i fear for the people who do rely on getting some money up front (and rightfully so) are really going to take a hit.

there's also the issue that posters are not really going to the venue for advertisement, so now they have to do extra duty and make their own. and that venue that you had a good relationship with is now not hiring you to do anything, since their is a series and they can't pay you big bucks for an exclusive run for the venue where you used to take less and make up with over run...but you can't do over runs because of the series, now you have to find other smaller venues and reestablish a relationship, or be even more aware of when a series happens so you arent stepping on toes,...it goes on and on and on...


people be havin' problems.

[MrBlonde7]

Women be shoppin'.

[MrBlonde7]

(and nice post, Birdsn'Rabs. Interesting to hear about, since I know little about how it works.)

[birdsandrabbits]

thanks, i think.

is that sarcasm? the internet is tricky to read now a days...

[MrBlonde7]

Naw, I'm surrius.

[iwilldestroyyou]

Wow... I'm new to this whole thing, so I'm not sure if I have much to offer in this discussion... It's interesting.

I guess I look at it as... Yes they may be exploiting our art. But as an artist, I'm using the band's name to introduce my artwork to their audience. I've broadened my fanbase quite a bit through doing artwork for bands. And ultimately, that's worth more than the money to me. But, I have a day-job doing animation. I'm not trying to live off the sales of my art, comics or posters. If I was making a living this way, I'd be a lot more worried about getting paid. If you're making a business out of this, I think you guys are right to demand getting paid. But if you just want to get your artwork out there, then I think it's a decent trade-off.

[strawberryluna]

Originally Posted by birdsandrabbits

i think there are bigger implications of these tour series' as well.

aside from the artist having to design, run, ship, and eat all the costs right off the bat, there is the issue that it gives bands/labels/promoters the idea that they can get shit for free now...why pay their local poster person when someone is willing to do it for free? I'm not in this situation (since i do work pretty much exclusively for little bands playing in art galleries and garages) but the folks that have been busting their asses for years now to establish some ground rules for the poster community, set standards, set a value for what they do (especially in their city,) and in turn make a half decent living out of printing...they are gonna get screwed. hard. free posters or having to pay someone. free wins every time.

i don't think it's in anyway out of line to say that "merch series" poster designers shouldn't at least have their hard costs covered...paper, ink, and shipping. if these series posters are going out as merch, and the organizers/bands are hand picking the artists, then they want you for a reason. you have a value. don't throw that away. if you've been picked, and you have to send them 30-40 percent of a run, at 10 bucks a pop, they only have to sell 5 to get you 50 bucks to cover costs. they obviously like your art, have faith in it, or you're some boner-inducing artist that everyone wants right now. 50 bucks to get your stuff isn't out of line, especially when it's making a back end of 350 bucks for a band that didn't have to do anything for it, except open a package at the venue and put it at the table. you have to hustle, they don't. built in audience.

i've done a couple tour series' myself. i'm not hating on them, but it seems that it's now becoming the trend. i'm worried its a trend that is getting going for the wrong reasons and establishing a standard for what posters (i.e.: our work) is worth...which seems to be coming up nothing. although i don't rely on it for cash, i fear for the people who do rely on getting some money up front (and rightfully so) are really going to take a hit.

there's also the issue that posters are not really going to the venue for advertisement, so now they have to do extra duty and make their own. and that venue that you had a good relationship with is now not hiring you to do anything, since their is a series and they can't pay you big bucks for an exclusive run for the venue where you used to take less and make up with over run...but you can't do over runs because of the series, now you have to find other smaller venues and reestablish a relationship, or be even more aware of when a series happens so you arent stepping on toes,...it goes on and on and on...


people be havin' problems.

even if it was sarcasm, which i doubt it was, i agree and won't bother typing much more than to say that birdsandrabbits basically summed up my take on the issue too.

the occasional, rare, random free-posters-for-a-band series is one thing, but making it a new unpaid business model is bad news bears all around.

some series have & do & are paying gigs, even if just covering materials and shipping, and that should be what all serieseseses aspire to.

[MaximumFluoride]

What you may not realize is how badly this fucks other artists who are trying to make a living from doing art for bands. It makes it VERY difficult to get paid what we are worth as why would a band pay ME when YOU will do it free?

Not trying to be a dick, just stating the facts.

Originally Posted by iwilldestroyyou

Wow... I'm new to this whole thing, so I'm not sure if I have much to offer in this discussion... It's interesting.

I guess I look at it as... Yes they may be exploiting our art. But as an artist, I'm using the band's name to introduce my artwork to their audience. I've broadened my fanbase quite a bit through doing artwork for bands. And ultimately, that's worth more than the money to me. But, I have a day-job doing animation. I'm not trying to live off the sales of my art, comics or posters. If I was making a living this way, I'd be a lot more worried about getting paid. If you're making a business out of this, I think you guys are right to demand getting paid. But if you just want to get your artwork out there, then I think it's a decent trade-off.