its not the size that matters....

[Basil]

Im not arguing that, Chachichi. Lord knows Hess is horrible at laying text: Ive seen him lay all black IMPACT font against a dark background.
I was just trying to make the point that it IS about art to OTHERS, even tho Vibranium, admittedly, says it isnt for HIM.
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. But to say its not about art, that just doesnt make sense.

[Nolen Strals]

I dont' think you can blame vibranium for being verbose...maybe, like me, he just has a job where he sits at a computer all day and also, like me, he has very little people in his area to discuss this stuff with, so he uses this as the place to do it coz it's one of his few outlets. (If you dont' like long comments you might as well skip this one coz it's kinda long since I came into this late)

As for the separation of art and design, that's something I struggled with my senior year when my thesis was posters (for shows, plays, political things) and other forms of "public art". My advisor one day out and out said what I was doing didn't classify as art since it was for promotional/commerical purposes and I should redirect my focus to what it had previously been (two weeks later he apologized though coz I think he saw the error in his statement). It's something I discussed with my friends who were graphic design majors constantly. One comment I didnt' agree with on here was that certain artists (coop and kozik were named) were illustrators (thus artists) since their posters were primarily drawn.

BUT, when lettering/type becomes involved, I personally think you've crossed into design. Letters and letterforms are a design element. They are the basic element of design. It's why if you major in graphic design, often your first class is Typography One...so you can learn the basic root of design. Without type, it is just a photo, or an illustration or whatever (though it is possible to design just wth images, but that's a moot point with posters).

When you say that coop, kozik, etc are not designing their posters, you're missing something. If they weren't designing it, they would just plop the letters where ever, but they decide where to place the letters among/against the art. That's a designers decision. Believe me, I went to an art school, and kids who just throw words onto their paintings/illustrations without any thought behind it, it shows, coz the work suffers, but those guys think about where they are putting the letters.

I almost said design is a branch or art, or a type of it, but it just doens't sit right with me to say so.
I think a lot of people aren't used to considering design beautiful, and so if they see a beautiful poster, they call it art. Well, what if it had just been a page in a magazine, a printed ad in that format...would it then be art? or design?
Why can't design be beautiful?

This argument will go on long past the days we all die, but it's a good discussion to see on here.

To whoever said "more often than not it seems that poster artists that are strong illustrators are more often than not not so good with type - Hess, Kozik come to mind."

yeah I can agree with that. I actually talked with hess about his stuff at a gallery show, and he says he's trying to do the text more by hand now, which I was glad to hear, coz it fits his work better, and the stretched/squished/etc type on his work was what had prevented me from buying some of his stuff. I loved the art, but the type just didn't sit right with me.

I know I'm breaking a rule here and criticizing one of the big guys when I'm a relative nobody ("the little guy can't have an opinion" seems to be the opinion of some on here), but I just think most poster artists should check out a book on typography. And I'm not just picking on hess here, as I said, I love his work, I just wish he knew more about type/lettering.
(not that my work is always perfect, don't go accusing me of getting self-righteous here...I wish I knew more about lettering and type so my work could be stronger).

yeah...i had about way too many points in here...next time I'll try to be more cohesive...

oh, and to whomever said that I learned my lesson after making broad comments. I am still glad I made my original post, I don't feel burned or whatever from teh backlash, coz it turned into a good discussion, just like this one has.

okay...back to work...

[vibranium]

the BB King poster was commissioned and the photo was provided by the promoter/venue.

[vibranium]

it is an old dicussion and it is one people get heated about. i think we should all air our thoughts well known or not . there are younger folks/students/etc and they would benefit. i've said it before - i am a dyed-in-the-wool designer. and not a frustrated painter. i am my biggest critic and sometimes that leaks out. but i never was disrespectful or slagged anyone directly. there are artist i USED to like - that i don't anymore - i've grown out of them or whatever. and i'm certainly not out to bust anyone or make accusations on this site. so at the end of the day i feel pretty good. i have STRONG opinions about specific topics - which i'll be happy to continue discussing - if anyone wants to.

my most heated posts were regarding self-commissioned - self-produced posters (by the way - a concept i never imagined and was introduced to here). And i addressed it as a phenomenon not individuals. i just don't get it and i have trouble lending it creedance. if others were disrespectful in the past - it has nothing to do with me.

[vibranium]

it is an old dicussion and it is one people get heated about. i think we should all air our thoughts well known or not . there are younger folks/students/etc and they would benefit. i've said it before - i am a dyed-in-the-wool designer. and not a frustrated painter. i am my biggest critic and sometimes that leaks out. but i never was disrespectful or slagged anyone directly. there are artist i USED to like - that i don't anymore - i've grown out of them or whatever. and i'm certainly not out to bust anyone or make accusations on this site. so at the end of the day i feel pretty good. i have STRONG opinions about specific topics - which i'll be happy to continue discussing - if anyone wants to.

my most heated posts were regarding self-commissioned - self-produced posters (by the way - a concept i never imagined and was introduced to here). And i addressed it as a phenomenon not individuals. i just don't get it and i have trouble lending it creedance. if others were disrespectful in the past - it has nothing to do with me.

[vibranium]

--a drawing doesn't automatically make it 'art'.
--stuff on paper doesn't automatically make it design (or art)
--art doesn't automatically make it good. (neither does design)

the BB King comparisons were completely subjective (opinion) - i'm not sure what the point is. i never said i was better then anyone - i suck.

[drowningcreek]

I beg to differ....anything drawn IS art. I t may be horribly executed art....but art none the less.

Anything printed on paper is PUBLISHED. Altough it may be horribly executed art or printing...it's still published, and your right it does not make it good art. I seen crap published.

...an lastly good or bad art is purely subjective. Is the drawing done by a handicapped kid using his teeth to hold a pencil bad? NO, it's inspirational, although the actual art may not be a Mucha. I'd still call it art.

One man's garbage is another man's masterpiece.

Kozik doesn't even consider himself an artist...and gets pissed when you refer to him as one. Although I consider him an artist, he doesn't........I guess it's the same for the art itself.

[vibranium]

there is a difference between fine art and design. period. But it is moot. it's an individual decision. if owned a gallery i'd show 2% of what i've seen here. but, thats the beauty of it - your galley would show a different 2% or 98% whatever.

i think alot of these talents would make for great pure fine art endevours. or a zine. the psoter angle seems like a groupie mentality. it reminds me of the guys/girls who go on Howard Sterns show to like drink something gross to get a cut of there album played. BUT GO FOR IT FOLLOW YOUR HEART. TODAYS BASEMENT PUBLISHER IS TOMORROWS COOP - RIGHT?

[drowningcreek]

To put all this prespective. It's all subjective and as a commercial artist, I have to look at numbers in the end.

If I do a good poster for a band/promoter/etc and it gets attention, allows me to get paid for it, I'm happy.

If people scamble to buy the prints and the signed edition sells out, even better. I did my job and actually might make a little money, rather than just break even.

Now behind the scenes, let's say I had to do that poster in two days, the computer broke down, cutting my schedule down to hours, so I throw an old pencil sketch in the scanner, colorize it, separate it and send it to press . I did all this in 4-6 hours....and hated the design because I felt rushed and couldn't go with what I really wanted to do. Then I send it to the promoter, he flips and loves it, the band loves it, the poster dealers love it...and it sells out. All the while I sitting there saying to myself, how crappy I thought it was, and let's say It would have gotten shredded in a critique of my peers.... Who was right?

It was a success even with my misgivings and it's design/technical flaws. Once again, who's right? Me? The public? The critics?

I have no idea...all I know is I've had the scenario play out more times than I'd like to admit.

After twenty plus years of pleasing often difficult clients, I've come to learn that art is VERY subjective, and is interpreted in such an individual way by people it's very hard to judge people's reactions on ANYTHING.

I tend to look at my art through the crtical eye of an art director, but that 16 year old kid sees a new 311 poster with a cool alien on it. he could care less who did it or how long it took, and he doesn't even know the wrong color purple got thrown instead of that cool ink I really wanted used.

I call the style art I do "eye candy". It's not fine art, nor pretends to be. It's pretty to look at. My job is to make it pretty enough to get past it, get paid and move on to the next job and hope I get to do it a little better than the last one.

Geez, I'm long winded.....

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: drowningcreek on 2002-01-08 07:33 ]</font>