Thing change and people change Steve. I'm no longer the man you once knew that would kick your ass at the drop of a hat. (even though I still COULD) :-D
Actually, the change occurred long before the fatherhood issue came into being. That's just an additional blessing.
wow. that's amazing. why does anybody here care at all about me in the first place? get some persepctive out there.
trucker, i'll post my phone number in the pm. not a trick, not a mind game, not a power thing, just a conversation to calm this down a tad. it's getting a little weird.
Art- you're welcome.
And I appreciate the offer to get to know a little more about you, what you do and how you tick by contacting you. But to be quite honest, I think it would be an exercise in futility.
It's obvious that you and I come from different backgrounds and disciplines when it comes to creating artwork. And that's TOTALLY cool with me.
But, to be brutally honest, I don't really WANT to contact you.
The hostility and negative/bitter vibes that I get from reading alot of your posts makes me not want to deal with being sucked into your delusional little world by listening to what you have to say. I've got better things to do with my time.
I've been trying for years to get rid of negativity in my life, and I don't need to backslide by possibly getting into it with you over trivial stuff such as poster art and who you "are".
I won't give you that power. Sorry pal.
I love poster art, but to be honest with you, it's throw away pop-culture. I come to this site for fun and I act like a goof. If I get jobs out of stuff that happens here, FANTASTIC, so be it.
In the grand scheme of things, this is a drop in the ocean of life. I don't really need to waste energy on trivial stuff like listening to you justifying who you were back when you think you ruled the roost.
Just because you are wallowing in a bitter world of hate, doesn't mean that the rest of us want to swim along side you.
So to make a long story short. I will respectfully decline to contact you.
We can agree to disagree. Nuff said.
Now, as far as you NOT bluffing. I'd have to disagree.
You said I "constantly slam me" or "your just nasty to me all the time" and I should "quit being such a jerk to me and try being a human being".
Try heeding some of your own advice bub.
I'd hardly call the small smidgen of jabs that I have thrown your way in the past year any kind of campaign of hate against you. Not compared to the volumes of anti-Chantry posts by other people on this site.
I'm man enough to admit I HAVE thrown jabs at you occasionally more for your horrible attitude here at gigposters then your actual work itself, but after reading countless posts filled with venom by you it's getting harder for me to separate the man and his attitude from his work.
So, if you are going to have the brass ones to call me out on something like that, at least have the facts to back it up.
I might not be the most artistic person on this site, nor am I the most learned of people, but I do pride myself on being a man of integrity who sticks to his word.
And now to use your OWN words, I am now going to 'f-off'.
I'm sure you AREN'T such a bad guy Art, I just don't wanna find out firsthand by playing in your sandbox.
Take care of yourself Chantry, it's a big world out there....
what I like about this piece, and many others on this site, is whether or not anyone has any formal "education" is not relevent. I've worked for years as both a freelancer and gainfully employed person and can say my lack of a BFA has had NO bearing. But following ones muse is really what its all about anyway. And what makes a poster like this stand out is the SEEMINGLY effortless and flawless execution. ANYONE could take these elements and mix 'em up, but getting it to flow and the correct proportions of the elements is what makes the difference. Educated or not has nothing to do with anything. Its all spacial relationships. And that is why some posters are a "success" and others completely "fail". The beauty of it all is that it doesn't even matter cuz they aren't solving world peace or hurting anyone. Gotta love it!
hey Lure-i did not mock your post I was agreeing with you. I think that the way the Black elements are balanced really makes this piece work. I love the plane-breaking overlaps because they draw your eye down the text in a nice swoop. that blck blob behind the fire shock really ties it all together too.
art, you said: "'uneven line weight' hardly means anything at all in this context."
i agree. that's why i referred to it (in the typography) as a DETAIL. don't you think this would feel a bit more sterile and loose some character with clean mac-set fonts? that was my point.
geez, it's getting hard to even hand out compliments around here.
i discovered design by accident as well. i had been in school as a philosophy/religious studies double major for 2 years before discovering design.
ive always been drawn to creative fields, mostly music. ive played in bands and such since the 7th grade. ive always made flyers and what not for my bands shows, but never thought anything of it. i took a job at kinkos (you know, for the free prints), and was pushed into the desktop publishing dept. because i was one of the few people working there at the time who had any computer experience. working in downtown honolulu in that position gave me the opportunity to meet and talk with people that worked for local advertising firms, and often they would comment that i should look further into doing design work. i soon became a graphic design major. stayed in school another 2 years within the major, and realized that everything that i was learning at that point was rehash, and that i wasnt getting very much real production experience. took a ad production job with a magazine, and later did design work for the local news weekly. i thought i was off to a good start until i got here.
its really tough to get into the field here without being an mcad graduate. the interviews that i have been to have been good until ... "you have some really nice stuff here, do you plan on going back to school?"
on the degree issue, i don't know how it works elsewhere, but i've never even asked anyone if they had a degree before hiring them. sure, it's on the resume they give. but what does that resume look like? it's all about the book.
Art, et al - i went to a small, dopey community college. i literally stumbled upon design, i had NO IDEA what it was when i accidentally registered for and attended an intro class. my instructors (gooch for one - best teacher eva!) were smart talented people who taught me alot. i went from VCC to CA in 6 years, 90% of that time on my own (self-employeed) CA is not the end all be all of design we know that, i simply use that as some sort of measure. you for sure and perhaps i and many others were going to end up doing this. a calling perhaps. perhaps my 'education' was perfectly suited to me. perhaps if i had known when i lived at home (NYC) that design was for me i could have gone to SVA or Parsons, how much better would i be right now? you can argue that maybe i'd been worse off sure, but the odds? i absorbed from those that were smart, and ignored those that weren't.
i guess after re-reading my post my experience was SO unorthodox i can't relate...i was lucky i guess.
your a genius (arguably) and you were before you took painting, before you sat down in that design class, you were when you were emptying garbage cans.
one more point. art, this poster may not be worthy of so much discussion. i was responding to the first post here about "imagine what he could do with a mac." it was more about your process (what i understand of it) rather than about this particular poster.
i only took one design class in my life, and i already knew more than the teacher. i'm totally self-taught in design. however, i went to 'higher' eduction for six years. i ended up pulling a ba (not a bfa) in art with an emphasis in painting. and i hate to paint. i didn't even declare a major until my FINAL QUARTER of college, because if i had, i would have been banned form one department or the other because of collegiate in-fighting. all college really teaches you is how to survive a system trying to destroy you (sorta like the army or a corporation). you design your own education.
pm, i'm very sorry if my post came off with an aire of "superiority." not my intension at all. as a matter of fact, i am humbled by much of the work on this site, feeling quite inferior. and learning.
and, art, i know you wanted it to look a bit fucked up. i was just really getting into the level of detail you put into these posters. *I* think it gives them much of their character. that's all.
this thread just all fell apart after frank mocked my post.
sorry for bringing it up.
i really haven't seen anybody held back by not having a bfa. i see people hired all the time who have no business doing graphic design, and all they have is the latest software- not even a lousy bfa. and, considering what DON'T teach you in school about this stuff (it could fill volumes), i'm not sure the boob-off-the-street-who-just-bought-quark-and-is- now a real graphics-designist isn't the better hire than some geek out of yale who has never even seen a printing press.
oh, and i also wanted to point out that this poster was a benefit show thrown together on the heels of the infamous estrus warehouse fire. it was put together by a bunch of dave's friends who wanted to help out. it was sorta like a 'let's put on a show' kinda mickey rooney/judy garland thing. that is also strongly reflected in the design choices i made.
i think design education is terribly flawed, at least as it is presented in the united states today. that being said, i think a solid liberal arts education - with continuing efforts to self-educate for the rest of your life - is essential for quality design work. in other words, a really good designer has to know a little about everything, and a lot about a lot. and every client brings you a whole new world to learn. it never stops, and it's great. >>
unfortunately, today you are going to need both. solid liberal arts foundation and the BFA. Its near impossible to get a design job without the degree. Unless you want to be freelancing for the rest of your life (which is okay, if you can handle the occasional poverty), or be stuck doing production work you need the degree.
well..... after reading all this stuff this morning (really, i don't think this particular poster is worthy of such a lengthy discussion. it's a bit of a trifle), i've got two comments:
1) all this discussion about line weight and typefaces, etc. is good, but it all falls apart when you realize i was trying to destroy all of those artistic 'credentials of quality' in order to give this piece the ol' 'human touch'. that is, i wanted it to look all fucked up, just like everything else people do. it forces the viewer to interperate the information from a different persepctive, a different cultural meaning. right from the gitgo you realize this ain't no disco, this is folks doing their own creative thaing. and it'll be a little lame, but it'll be fun. that's all in the attitude and language presented. 'uneven line weight' hardly means anything at all in this context.
2) i think design education is terribly flawed, at least as it is presented in the united states today. that being said, i think a solid liberal arts education - with continuing efforts to self-educate for the rest of your life - is essential for quality design work. in other words, a really good designer has to know a little about everything, and a lot about a lot. and every client brings you a whole new world to learn. it never stops, and it's great.
as soon as I saw where Vibe said "if you just want to stand open-mouthed and grunt fine - we don't disturb the bonehead status quo. back off the educated." at the end of the day yesterday, I saw this same stupid shit storm coming.
I sawsomeone reading it wrong adn gettig defensive and then this turning into "you guys think I'm stupid, well you're stupid" etc. etc. thing... like clockwork...
For teh 1,324th time: some of us like to dissect work, others just like to grunt. Let the grunters grunt, let the dissectors dissect and stop intentionally reading shit to make yourself an f-ing martyr. Man, that week in nebraska away from a computer was refreshing.
This poster is awesome. I love the crappy old copied type faces that would be ruined if digitized and all the smart little elements enough people described already. The collage work is great, my one question... is the girls' outfit faked on by chantry or by the original source? either way its cool...just curious
oh kids ... now now, last thing we need on this site is another arguement (believe me, i know). some people can like the work without knowing "why" it works, and some people need to know "why" it works ... like vib said, live and let live.
Vib that was a PM quote... :lol:
I didnt mention Lure ... I like his work, very design orientated, and in some weird way seeing his stuff may even have influenced me, as has your stuff... I find stuff appealing I remember it, like that black spray stencil poster you did... I thought that was great.
i dunno. i can respect someone who knows more then me about a topic i respect. i wouldn't say that person is a better person - he may be a bastard - but when it comes to that topic i can look up to him/her/ no problem. i'd even go so far as to say on a certain level their opinion is more valid then mine...
Well Vib, education is good... and its also at times a handicap,its up to the induvidual to work out the diff. I read what I feel I should and I dont what I wont. I think Philiarts has a good point its not a higher level just a differnt one. Either way, its what makes my work so different to yours, isnt it? I mean if I did work like yours then wed both fish for the same clients...and with the aussie dollar being so poorly, Id be value for money. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
for a U.S nquarter you could buy a kangaroo farm over here!! :lol:
>>This poster is great on so many different levels and can be enjoyed not only for it's immediate aesthetic appeal, but also for the design... it seems we all agree on that at least!<<
then why rag on Lure? No offense frumpy, just using it to make a point.
why start a thread about 'fansee' art talk??
why, why, why for the love of christ WHYYYYY???? tee hee - i'm even bored of this now...but i am curious as to Phillarts answer to the 'super critic' question...
ok, i'm with you. let me ask ya - is there no higher way to appreiciate art? it's all equal? no one could ever be a 'super' critic? there is no one around who could just totally enlighten us? just see things in a way and totally blow your mind and let you see something in new way? is that possible?
oh, yea, no hard feelings, i luv ya.
I do understand all of your points, Vib... I think most of us do. I really don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't try to understand or learn design principles from an intellectual stand point, at least I'm not. What I *am* trying to say is that none of us should have to resort to ad hominen to support our points of view.... it fails to get the point across effectively.
This poster is great on so many different levels and can be enjoyed not only for it's immediate aesthetic appeal, but also for the design... it seems we all agree on that at least!
"and i'd love to live Phillarts grey-washed-banal everything-is-great-world.
i really don't understand why some hold up there lack of knowledge or education as such a badge? "
well. theres room for everyone. if you think that honestly. then you really have no clue about me. yeah im tolerant. but i know bad artwork. i see it alot. just not gonna pound it out on someones head.
as for holding up lack of official education as a badge, i hear you..
but i also dont see why others hold up a badge of education..
some of the greatest artist had no training or gigposters... feel free to dissect. but its just another angle of looking at something. not a higher level. just a different one. look around, the great artists in the past 200 years were not schooled. i can let jermaine do a full list.
either way. top o the morning and keep up the nice work.
Hey Vib, I see ya point... yeah , its fine to be educated , but isnt there a time when you feel enough education and more instinct?
" if it wasn't for the scholars there'd be nothing to study "
Can I ask you this, then ill leave ya be, as I wanna sleep... but, the works these scholars study, how many of them were just doing what came naturally as opposed to studying for ages to create what was studied? Please no heavy shit, as im not taking this too seriously, just a quick chat over coffee...
(SORRY this is long) agreed, PM, a little too much eye for an eye. and i'd love to live Phillarts grey-washed-banal everything-is-great-world.
i really don't understand why some hold up there lack of knowledge or education as such a badge? i grew up in a world where you try to better yourself through education, hard work, tolerance, etc. by constantly learning - whether in school or not. in truth you can 'better' yourself. education makes you smarter, more tolerant, a better parent, etc. not universally, obvoiusly there are educated fucks, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water. and even people here who weren't trained to design obvoiusly read and continue educate them selves. so, in short i'm not so sure why you defend dumbness. don't complain about dissections - if it wasn't for the scholars there'd be nothing to study, there'd be nothing archived. nothing to rip off or LEARN from. there is room for BOTH outlooks. if one is educated you have the ability to do BOTH. if one stay uneducated one is limited. period. why do you think those muslim fucks the taliban banned education? be proud to be an american, to have the ability to learn, to educate, to better yourself.
Hey Lure I read ya comment on the breakdown to the poster, line weight a photocopied N etc... I see what ya mean, I guess I really only go for what stimulates my retina to notice something and not the breakdowns of it... Looking at the poster to me, Id think Art fucked up and over sized a letter and didnt give a fuck, or maybe he uses the old waxed back way to layout and it moved and didnt bother fixing it up , whatever... happy accidents. Its a nice poster, looks good, and Id notice it on a wall of posters here in melbourne. I havent done design for 17 yrs, Ive just painted and dabbled in loads of shit that wasnt design based, so I guess I look at the whole thing differently. But I did enjoy ya analysis of his poster. ;-)
To relate this differently, I play guitar, and I wrote alot of music, then I decided I should learn theory, so I did, and got into Modes and loads of different shit, then I found Id stop myself from writing because my theory had me understand that I couldnt place this chord here as it was diatonically incorrect or whatever, then I slowly realised I was handicapping my exploration by shutting my ears to let the theory control it. Yep you should learn basics, and the rest of the theory is what determines what kinda muso youll be, me I like to express myself, I didnt wanna be a hired hand, doing fillins, or sightreading a way through a gig... this is how I take Art, and Posters, I go with what looks good, and does the job well. Im still learning and I aint a pro in anyway... its all how you see it.
anyone want a coffee??? Im making @[_]
i was just typing an apology. i quoted the wrong person. sorry lure. also you are elevating anything here. you are simply looking at a project by a different perspective. that is not more educated in all fairness. some of the most famous masters are looked at a basic level. and you have experts rip it open and dissect. and then the artist come back and says, hey its an avodaco dudes...
its a different perspective, not a higher level.
PM NO ONE IS SAYING THAT....
i'm SAYING --live and let live.-- jeez...are you looking for a fight?? i'm not. remember we buried the hatchet?
the point is, when people just say 'me like' ugh - no one (me, lure, whoever) writes in and comments. the minute Jeff goes deeper or smarter or whetever he's ragged on (ok they were half kidding). so back off live and let live.
PHILL - I said that. don't pin it on jeff - he's being very careful so don't misquote him. NOW - there is a difference between not educated and smart. i only have a 2 year degree...barely 'educated' but i don't have to revel in 'simple' all the time do I? i can elevate a bit, eh? and by the way i'm not excluding anyone or being elitest, if you enjoy on a primal level FINE. some don't so back off'em. live and let live. that's all.
c'mon PM lets not git into it agin. you know i was just defending a position. i've been MINDING MY BUSINESS for WEEKS now - don't jump on me like i attack everyone. i don't. relax. i vented, that's all...i didn't attack anyone.
AL - i understand, it's an old wound...even picking at it in a funny way stings. but i get it, everyones just having a laff.
lure you did say
"if you just want to stand open-mouthed and grunt fine - we don't disturb the bonehead status quo. back off the educated."
well, some of the biggest artist around had no education in art. i think some people might see it that way. im sure you dont agree with me. but we never seem to agree. its cool ;-)
i'm sorry, pm. i'm REALLY not trying to talk down to anyone. there are people here how get these details. there are people here who don't give a shit. and there are people here who might not see it yet and might learn something by talking about it. i've been doing design for 17 years or so and i don't have all the answers, i'm still learning. that's part of the reason i'm still here on this site.
"i'm just appreciating the details here and trying to explain it so you can too. "
"if you just want to stand open-mouthed and grunt fine - we don't disturb the bonehead status quo. back off the educated."
Is it really necessary for you guys to talk down to everyone else just because they have a different opinion than yours? Or because they ask a question or 2?
...no one was calling anyone out...frumpy clearly states it was not a persnal attack...and i just thought the wording frumpy used was funny as hell so i responded...i like to learn as much as the next guy about design...especially typography...sorry about the miscommunication..frumpy cracks me up some times...and i laughed out loud.-al
why do you have to call the guy out 'cuz he loves the poster and wants to 'think' about it on more then one level? Some of us like to enjoy something on more then a primal level. fuck, back off. jeez. if you listen to music and just gyrate like a single cell animal, fine. some folks like to go deeper, think of chords and vibe, and arrangement. if you just want to stand open-mouthed and grunt fine - we don't disturb the bonehead status quo. back off the educated.
also...the weight of the drop shadow and the line around the yellow box...not to thin, not to thick...the drop shadow behind the arrow is perfectly in gravitational balance with thw hootter thab hexk AND the black blob. Multiple overlapping elements make for a nice 'tumble' down the length of it AND guide you to the information as well.
tour de force, baby.
i was indirectly responding to raphrat's post here. and not trying to create an argument. and if you're not interesting in discussing this type shit, don't read on (i know how some of you hate this kind of talk).
beyond the idea, the composition and illustration, the details are what really make the work great. some of those details may be hard to see on line. but in the case of much of art's work, the type is amazing. stuff you cannot get on a mac. it gives the work character. the poster looks like it really came from the era from which the art and type was borrowed, but with a whole new context. and the type is often the detail that makes it convincing. art's not using adobe, t-26, emigre or house fonts (in most cases?). he's constructing new text by photocopying REAL retro type and cutting and pasting it together by hand. in this poster, notice the weight of the "N" in the word "night" compared to the the other charcters in the word. it's too heavy. look at the word "only" it's fucked up; the "O" and the "N" are again too bold, the "L" is a bit too extended, and the "Y" is just fucking bad. if these fonts were all replaced with new fonts, much of the character would be lost.
i think the Crap-Out poster is an even better example.
i'm just appreciating the details here and trying to explain it so you can too.
Call me a Pagan, but I really dont get the line weight that the educated talk about... Although I understand what its getting at. I like to think that if it looks cool visually without the disecction then its fine, A bit like looking at a girls face, and going wow..she pretty...then looking real close and seeing blemishes on her skin and coffee stains on her teeth... This isnt any personal attack, just me rambling bout not digging the line weight factor...
As for this poster , I like it.
i figgered. no one's makin bad fonts like that anymore. and by bad, i mean poorly drawn; uneven weights where they should be even; uneven baselines and x-heights; al that. they have a wonderful feel. thanks for sharin', art.
lure - yeah, most of it was ciut out letter by letter from historical sources and then pasted together then sized to fit on a copier. some of it was hand drawn (the 'fireshock' type was partly drawn, partly taken from historical sources)
how do you do this type, art? is it copied from old reference and cut together? do you redraw it all by hand? the feel of it you just cannot create on a computer. (oh, sure, you could create it and scan it in, but you guys know what i mean.)