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DESIGNER:

Frank Kozik

VENUE:

The Trocadero

Philadelphia

USA

SUBMITTED BY:

Frank Kozik

2002-06-09 18:48:56

BANDS:

Poster - The Trocadero, Philadelphia - Frank Kozik

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kozik :

this is collaged from a photo and some amberlith. I made up the italian, i think it makes sense
"the hand which gives life to death'
and below that
'The devil's lover'
put it's probable misspelled.
all the posters i saw did have like fucked up 'logo' looking text slathered over the image. The layout on the bottom is keeping with a generic 'formula'.
By the way, I almost never do the 'cartoony' posters any more. basically, the last 150 or so designs, most of which I can't post because they are like ads or magazine illos or cd packages or promo posters (lots of those) are stylistic all over the board. A lot of it is also been 'invisible' commercial work. You would be surprised, you see stuff I have done evry day on billboards and shit,there's just no signature. a couple of movie posters too. I'll get Jermaine to post my Rolling Stones 'Gimme Shelter' Theatre 1 -sheet soon.

2002-06-14 11:31:21

seripop :

i don't think anyone on here is going after frank cuz he's big, simply having a disscussion that as strated elsewhere. i for one think it's pretty cool that no one sucks up (too much) to the big guys and that we can all be pretty honest in our opinions. i think crits do us all good, by talking about what makes and breaks a poster we can the apply it to our own work. and yes kozik is famous, because he is good, but this and a few other more 'designey' pieces are prettty diffrent from what he usually does.

2002-06-14 06:31:00

JGex :

Kinda my thoughts there, Truth. I don't take a lot of the crits too seriously because they do seem to be a matter of personal taste in many instances.
It's all good.

2002-06-14 06:28:57

Nolen Strals :

Sorry to drag this horse's corpse out again..."It fits the look and feel of the poster." Ummm...could you explain this more? The original poster Frank based this on I seriously doubt used stretched type...so how does it fit the look and feel? coz it's a tall/narrow poster?
You make a point though that I forgot to make in my own earlier comment, I really like hte oversized C, too. But again...look how well the type is done with a CONDENSED typeface (yknow, one made tall ad skinny so you don't have to stretch the regular weight). It's not stretched. He smartly found something there that fit the space...why not up top too? Anyway...new posters to look at now..

2002-06-14 05:58:47

kozik :

thanks!

2002-06-13 20:15:17

DaveGink :

Wow, I missed this whole discussion as well. Nolen, I agree with everything you say in a normal typesetting scenario...but I think it depends on the job wether typesetting rules can or should be broken. I think the stretched type in the case of this poster is completely acceptable. It fits the look and feel of the poster. And personally, I think the oversized C is a great touch, it balances the space below it nicely and just fits the 'vibe ' of the poster. I also love the way "the" is snuggled into the end of creatures instead of the front. I give it three and three quarter stars.

2002-06-13 20:13:06

philaarts.com :

um. im late to the party i guess... cool poster... stretch that font! c o o l

2002-06-11 16:05:52

kozik :

B O N E R

2002-06-11 15:54:51

Nolen Strals :

just for you, we'll stretch the type...hell, actually go to the site now and read the "post-typographic manifesto"... it kinda makes sense with this whole discussion (the site is just the manifesto at this point...all our work will be up very soon www.posttypography.com )

2002-06-11 15:51:22

kozik :

Nolen-sure feel free to use my blurb-but only if you do it in stretched type.

2002-06-11 15:48:46

Nolen Strals :

damn! i get made fun of without even being here to say that the stretched type DOES bug the fuck out of me! hahah awesome!
Stretched type, beyond looking bad, is just LAZY. If you care about what you're making, even just for yourself...you'd think you'd want it to be as good as possible right? So, as someone suggested...find the right font to fit the space.
Or maybe it's easier to say "hmmm...I wat a tall arrrow font... I know they make them... hmmm... oh wait... I'll take arial and stretch it by grabbing the bounding box in Illustrator and dragging...ehh, close enough!"
There's these things called "Families" of Typefaces/Fonts... yknow...all different weights, condensed, compressed, light, thin, black, etc. etc. Hell, it's even EASIER for those of you who design totally digitally to do this, as most fonts come as complete sets...which is not always the case for those of us cutting and pasting type who have to get a little more creative/do more research/book finding.
I was actually glad to see this was a Kozik, that he is indeed branching out into new territory sorta. But again...the first thing I thought when I saw it was "agh! they stretched the damn type!"
hmm what else did I have to say since I couldnt' add to this all day since I was too buried at my desk job...?
oh yeah, Frank, can we quote you on our soon-to-be-completed website that our Atom and His Package poster gave you a boner...? we were pretty proud of that. Oh, and I sold the yoda lube to Jermaine, he's the star wars freak who likes to stretch type...ahaha (oh and that new one was TERRIBLE! stiff stiff acting, bad script...oh wait...I'm off topic...but that's what these threads are for right?)
Frank...if oyu ever want some had-lettering done...drop me a line...seriously... or do it yourself...woulda really helped this one be that much better. The type at bottom is blocked up nicely.

2002-06-11 15:45:43

MaximumFluoride :

I hired a guy for a gig here at work and he got fucking hella paid! I didn't think he was all that but he had a reputation and a really good agency.

2002-06-11 15:41:21

kozik :

That ITT thing was a fluke, it was at the end of the 'Bubble' over there and they where like using 100 bills as toilet paper. I kinda have a 'big name' in Japan and they where basically paying for that.
I'll do any amount of work for any money basically, I just 'index' it to the clients ability to pay.
These days i have a professional 'rep' and she is pretty good at her job.
All the posters are just for fun.

2002-06-11 15:29:52

MaximumFluoride :

Thats alotta chips kid.

2002-06-11 15:28:43

kevin jones :

$140,000 on one job, i dont think there will ever be a time when i will make that in a year. that is insane!

2002-06-11 15:26:18

Jermaine :

140 grand, huh. my god...
Like I said yesterday, youre kinda cute. I cook and clean and I cut a mean rubylith...
...babycakes... ;-)

2002-06-11 15:25:44

Steve H :

actually i think u'd be right to leave it where it is.
mr loudmouth

2002-06-11 15:21:41

kozik :

It depends on the client. If it is a typical 'gig poster' for a 1 night stand for something like this-NOTHING. If it's say the Altoids Bus Shelter poster for national use-about 20 Grand.
The most I ever made from 1 job was I designed 2 characters for ITT (that's the big Japanese phone co,)
I got 140,000.00 for that.
it took exactly 3 hours to do. I am FLEXIBLE...some times I make tons of dough, and blow it on dumb shit like trying to have a record label, sometimes I make nothing...it all evens oout.
I just like to keep busy.

2002-06-11 15:21:28

Steve H :

frank, can i be cheeky and offer a lil bit more constructive criticism on the poster itself, not the way the type has been stretched but about the way it looks overall; reading this thread has given me enough time to look at this poster enough to see what i'd do if it were me. make the c a tad bit smaller and lift the white type at the bottom (l'amentedei demonio) up just a smidgen, i think its too low; then i think were onto a winner. :-D cheers!
mr knowitall

2002-06-11 15:09:58

kevin jones :

kozzi - how much do you charge to do a poster, or am i getting too personal?

2002-06-11 15:09:50

Jermaine :

the 'stretched text police' again? hmmm...
:oops: YAWN

2002-06-11 14:59:52

kozik :

I'm still digging myself out from the hole that was the bankruptcy last year, but it is rolling pretty good again. Give me a another year baby!
At least i am totally DEBT FREE for the first time ever/ That's pretty cool.

2002-06-11 14:52:45

lure :

ah, the stretching type debate again...
maybe it's just to the trained eye, but streched type looks like shit. that's all there is to it. it's rare to see it actually work.

2002-06-11 13:58:50

Ewing :

The funny thing is...
If I was walking down the street I would NOTICE the poster. It would catch my eye and I would want to know more. Isn't that the whole point of a poster? That it stands out amongst the other eye sores of advertising. I wouldn't care who designed it, but I'd sure as hell want know what the poster is for. If the text were done by hand...in a way it was from all the fucked up and photocopying done to it, then would it matter? There's a buttload of Dancey posters being ignored because some people are offended by stretched type.

2002-06-11 13:21:52

JGex :

:lol: You *do* realize that those who stretch the type are just doing it to annoy you purists, huh?

2002-06-11 13:20:40

JGex :

No crit of anyone, but merely an observation....
The same people who HATE stretched type are usually the ones who love to distort images.
The eternal type argument....

2002-06-11 13:13:06

kevin jones :

thats really funny jeff.

2002-06-11 13:10:20

Jeff Kleinsmith :

We started running this ad in rock mags about three years ago. http://www.thepatentpending.com/Font ad.jpg
House Industries, watch out!

2002-06-11 13:07:45

kevin jones :

besides, your smoking bunny has paid off a lot more than my knowledge of the 'golden section.'

2002-06-11 13:05:35

kevin jones :

everyone has their strengths ... i can't draw to save my life, and i spent 3 years in school trying to 'get it' and just couldnt. (see the cartoon me - http://www.kraftie.net/cartoon-kevin.gif
i try to draw all of the time, try to push myself to do it because i do care that i am not very good at it, and want to be better. not to please the illustrators here, but for myself. if you really have no interest in typography, dont bother with it to make the designer folks here happy. im sure you are happy doing what your doing!

2002-06-11 13:04:05

kozik :

Nolen ordered some YodaLube® so he's probably occupied right now....

2002-06-11 13:01:24

kozik :

For that i just looked at the real logo and reproduced the feel of it as close as i could with an exacto.
I promise I will try to be more 'sponge worthy' in regards to type in the future.
When I did the stuff for the Label, i did TONS of 'pure type' in an attempt to make the stuff look more 'grown up'
UNIVERSALLY all the bands and fans like NEVER GOT IT and would say stuff like..
dude, that's just some colors and regular letters...we thought we where getting a KOZIK design.
I can't win

2002-06-11 13:00:09

MaximumFluoride :

Wheres Nolen? He is usualy knee deep in these type discussions.

2002-06-11 12:56:48

kevin jones :

ps frank, i thought the hand lettered sonic youth (black sabbath) poster was perfect typographically ... and that was all type.

2002-06-11 12:55:20

kevin jones :

are you asking a general question, or related to this specific poster? generally, i am easy to disregard any piece with flexed type, because i think that if the designer didnt take the time to really find a typeface that fit the job, then it was probably a half ass job overall. that's assuming that the designer has any type background at all.
for people who arent designers, it is more easily forgivable, but it gets to the point that you suggest to them to take a look at it further so many times, it becomes obvious that they are never going to understand or care. c'est la vie.
i will say that i have seem MUCH worse than this poster. i can tell there was a solid attempt to do something interesting with the type.

2002-06-11 12:53:23

kozik :

Like I said before, I tend to either isolate the tyoe away from the image, as a 'block' to try and make it more 'readable, and also if someone really likes say the image and not the info they can cut it off and just have 'art'..when I have to imcorporate it it's usually to have a n 'element' and as long as it is vaguely 'of the era' I dont get to finicky about it.
on the bottom here, ALL the 'real' types of these posters follwed a basic format so I just reproduced it. It took like 10 minutes.
My stuff is usually 'image based' and yes, I tend to not deal with the type a whole lot.
Pretty soon I will do an 'all type' poster WITHOUT any distortion and we can see if I can pull that off.

2002-06-11 12:49:00

art chantry :

frank -
nice try at changing the subject, but i lost that particular arguement (mechanicals) years ago at a vote of a million to one. so, what is yer typographic philosophy? aand don't give any of that 'i don't give a damn' crap. it's obious by the gorgeous type at the bottom of this poster that you do give a damn.
by the way, does anybody else thinkthat the flex type clashes so strongly with the images that they almost cancel each other out? it's like an illustration on top of another illustration. it creates a mush.

2002-06-11 12:40:44

kevin jones :

so do these guys http://www.theonion.com/onion3730/helvetica_sweeps_fontys.html

2002-06-11 12:36:42

rockologist :

i LOVE helvetica. :-D

2002-06-11 12:30:55

HankTrotter :

Alright, Frank, I like that honesty. Most of the time your image or juxtaposition of that image against purpose in your posters is what drives their success.

2002-06-11 12:29:52

kozik :

...for balancing out a poster overall. I promise I will go get some type design books and try to get better at using it without distorting it so it's pure.
Couldn't hurt I suppose.
BTW ART-it is sort of ridicoulous for me to do these things with just mechanicals and stat cameras and then send it to the client, as it adds weeks to the job and costs all around. Doind this that way would have cost like 500 dollars. Doing it my way cost about 20, including the FEDEX.
for a random poster I think the degredation in 'purity' is worth the trade off. This client is a great guy and has zero dollars.

2002-06-11 12:29:38

kevin jones :

btw - typography was/is a PRINTER'S trade, maybe it would do some of you PRINTERS some good to look into it more.

2002-06-11 12:27:37

kevin jones :

btw - typography was/is a PRINTER'S trade, maybe it would do some of you PRINTERS some good to look into it more.

2002-06-11 12:26:53

rockologist :

wha' th hell... :-? i had some more important things to say-so important i forgot them. ;-)

2002-06-11 12:26:50

kozik :

I suppose that yes, my big flaw is that I'm not too interested in type beyond it's general 'era it evokes' and it's use as a 'block

2002-06-11 12:25:26

kevin jones :

people please ... typography is just something that i am sort of passionate about. and i realize that i am defending it to people who could care less, but thought that, for some reason, someone was actually interested, i would share. i'll just ignore youre stretched type and blatent over-use of helvetica from now on.

2002-06-11 12:23:37

666 guns for satan :

Fuck. Whose "rules of type"? art class rules? Fuck that, this is the real world. Like the poster or not, who cares. If I were getting attacked for stretching the text, it would make me want to design my next poster out of HIGHLY streched text, run it from top to bottom on like a 11" x 40" poster..
rats

2002-06-11 12:21:13

rockologist :

kraftie-if you were trying to drop science on me...thanks, but no need. i'm aware of all that. and if i were to put out illustrations to be used, i would EXPECT things to be done to them that i wouldn

2002-06-11 12:19:37

art chantry :

skinny -- us "old" nw guys all explored the flexed type thing back in the early eighties when it first hit the market. then we exhausted it and abandoned it as a useless form of typographic expression. it just look lousy. didn't say anything. it added nothing and took away a lot. type has personality and character that is inherant in it's design. flexing destroyed that and just made it looked flexed. that's all.
so, listen to us "old" guys and think before you jump. we just might have a pretty decent point we're trying to make.
of course you're free to go ahead and the flex the hell out of everything you do. that's fine. but fair warning, it'll kill your tyography.

2002-06-11 12:16:34

kevin jones :

truth - there are some 'rules' to typesetting, im sorry.

2002-06-11 12:15:51

kozik :

The background foto is a swipe. the hand with the cross was cut out of amberlith. The type on top was Akzidents G wich I juggled around, printed out,roughed up with a magic marker, crumpled up and re-scanned. I thresholded the girl and posterized her and added the color and texture and circles in photoshop.
I like stretched type, personally.
this took about 2 hours to do.
so it's a mixture of 'cut and paste' and computer.
looking at it now, the C is way too big.
But, I think it does look 'different' and sort of what it supposed too look like so I am 80% happy with it.

2002-06-11 12:11:18

kevin jones :

check out the forums at http://www.typophile.com or http://www.typographi.ca ... lots of type smart people there to learn from.

2002-06-11 11:57:45

kevin jones :

stretching a type designer's typeface would be the same as a designer cropping one of your illustrations or something.
type is designed with an intended use. weights, etc. are considered in the design of the type related to it's use. most font families have various weights and extended/compressed versions. those that do not, were not meant to be used that way. that is obvious because those who know the difference can see stretched type from a mile away.

2002-06-11 11:55:54

rockologist :

yes, hank. i DO really want to say that. i think frank's work is great (i've stated repeatedly how his work has affected me). but, again, even if he failed in his execution, it seems that he's thinking about type more, and that has always been the problem i've had with a lot of his stuff. but yeah, you should never try to break rules. :roll:

2002-06-11 11:53:22

Steve H :

theres nowt wrong with stretching type at all, as long as its in balance with the rest of the picture. all i'm saying and all i have said about this particular poster is that the c's too big,it acts as a focal point when it would be better if it was more subtle, thats all!

2002-06-11 11:51:16

MaximumFluoride :

Since I have been hanging around this site the whole stretching type thing has been debated.
I now am scared shitless when adding type to my work.

2002-06-11 11:48:29

kevin jones :

you can 'do something' without stretching type my friend. i think most of these 'nw scenesters' do a pretty good job at it, dont you?
thing is, before the use of computers, people would never conceive of stretching letters like that ... didnt start happening until amateurs got ahold of photoshop, nows its sorta becoming 'accepted.' this is no crack at frank, ive seen some stuff of his that was done pretty good type wise. and obviously, im not one to crack on computer users, cus i am one. i tried to set type by hand on my recent poster, and totally fucked it up (see the 'E' in June).

2002-06-11 11:43:10

kevin jones :

now youre 'stretching.'

2002-06-11 11:39:11

skin :

no wonder the northwest scene shriveled up and got old.
you guys who were steering it are ancient and narrowminded. Complaining about stretched text. damn...go DO something.

2002-06-11 11:38:57

Platinum Rich :

i'll take a hess pun ANY day over stretched and squished type.

2002-06-11 11:36:30

666 guns for satan :

got it

2002-06-11 11:36:16

HankTrotter :

Yeah, you can use it in a book of what not to do to type.

2002-06-11 11:34:55

666 guns for satan :

If you stretch out an ENTIRE alphabet of fonts and give this fontset a name, is it then OK to use?
freaks

2002-06-11 11:33:34

kevin jones :

blinking smiley face means "heh heh just kidding Art!"

2002-06-11 11:32:05

HankTrotter :

At least he's trying, do you really want to say that? Sounds like you're talking about a retarded child. Frank is a brilliant pop artist and resonates louder with more people than I can ever hope to, but his type has and may always be his weakest link.

2002-06-11 11:31:37

Steve H :

in my eyes it looks fine apart from the c being too big and the r next to the c being too small. :-)

2002-06-11 11:28:37

rockologist :

ok, maybe the stretching of the text is a little played out and weak, but i like seeing frank try to do something different with the text than i'm used to seeing him do. at least he's playing with it more.

2002-06-11 11:26:41

art chantry :

oh, and yeah, the type stinks. not that impressed with the stolen image either. where do people think that's all i do?
hank, please step in and tell them i don't steal things. pretty please? huh?

2002-06-11 11:23:09

art chantry :

kraftie - wow, that's brilliant! i had no idea that you use LESS PAPER with a computer!! that's amazing! think of it... a paperles art studio! that IS the future! think of the happy trees you'll personally save. we could band together and SAVE THE WORLD through computers! damn these things are AMAZING!!!!

2002-06-11 11:21:46

kevin jones :

Hank ... hahah, couldnt have said it better myself.
Truth - looks like he "Added Noise" and selected "Monochromatic"

2002-06-11 11:15:42

HankTrotter :

Oh, you guys! The type stinks! I haven't seen type stretched and squeezed like that since the early 90s! Fer christ sakes, Frank, if you want a font that's short and fat, go find one that's was designed that way. Stretching it on the computer is so....GAY! And lazy.

2002-06-11 11:14:00

rockologist :

nah, frank-i disagree with harry-i like the text, especially the large 'c'. matter of fact, i think this is the best thing you've with text since, well...i dunno, since somethin...

2002-06-11 10:05:54

kevin jones :

its the same as xerox, only smaller and it doesnt waste paper ;)

2002-06-11 09:54:10

art chantry :

what is 'scan'?

2002-06-11 09:52:34

kozik :

It's supposed to look like an Eye-talian horror movie poster from the 60's-70's.
art fag for a day-

2002-06-10 20:19:57

Barry :

Why is it not in English?

2002-06-10 20:18:13

Steve H :

its great apart from that bit,honest!

2002-06-10 20:16:16

kozik :

yeah harry I think your right. Oh well..I suck.

2002-06-10 20:14:01

Steve H :

its good, the only thing i'm not sure about is the creatures lettering, maybe the C's too big but thats just my opinion,i'm no design expert, i'm sure its all correct in the designer's instruction manual.

2002-06-10 20:09:40

Jermaine :

cool...
Siouxie and The Creatures are touring again?

2002-06-10 20:04:46

kozik :

I did this yesterday via the Art Chantry xerox and scan method. What do you think?

2002-06-10 20:02:43