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DESIGNER:

Frank Kozik

VENUE:

The Trocadero

Philadelphia

SUBMITTED BY:

2002-02-21 06:05:48

BANDS:

White Stripes, The

White Stripes Poster - The Trocadero, Philadelphia - Frank Kozik

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Plantweed :

Funny old discusion. :D

2005-02-01 06:37:16

SWAMP SLUT :

diggin it

2004-03-27 21:12:36

piemel :

I miss that vibranium dude... wished he would come back

2004-02-17 11:19:37

Jeph :

Holy Jesus is right, I was gonna read the whole thing, but I gotta work next week.
like Alice said cute poster, Frank.

2003-07-07 22:07:26

kozik :

Jesus. I never read this before.
man..its just a poster. Alice is the only one that gets it. cutesy poster for cutesy band.
end of story.

2003-07-07 21:56:44

greymatter :

jesus, it's the war and peace of comments for this one.
i like ok i guess. i'm glad that that kozik guy is trying something different for a change. (haha)

2003-07-07 21:44:54

Evil Alice Corp :

aww.that's so cute.

2002-12-17 17:47:49

standard :

I like this poster, Frank.

2002-12-04 15:13:44

Dusty! :

ok as far as the comparison to pro-bono design goes, most the places that I have worked that have taken on pro bono projects have been able to deal with the printer or with the charity to get the printing costs covered. so the only thing that is pro bono is the time spent on the design. as far as posters i think most artists just want the design costs covered. The Captains are in Philadelphia, we are not financially able to justify doing posters for the Trocadero Theater. And this is not a knock on their policies or philarts at all, he seems like he wants to get work for alot of artists so philaarts this isnt directed at you. Kozik can do it because he has a demographic that will buy his posters. The Captains have no demographic at all, no market, no gaurentee that we will ever see the money we put out to print 100-125 posters again. Its a big risk, and it sucks cause they have great shows that we would really love to do, but in out financial situation right now spending that money and then not selling any of it would kill us, literaly. As it is now we do not get payed for our posters BUT we are able to sell them at the show and this has proven a pretty good opertunity letting us break even after printing and all subsequent costs. In effect we are not able to make the leep to the next level because it is financially impossible, an may continue to be. Personally ide really like to ask Aesthetic Apparatus and Patent Pending how they handle selling their posters, they have a big rep. as great artists and im interested to know where most of their money comes from.. sales, venue etc.

2002-03-19 11:55:37

gooch :

God, I would like to apologize for that horrendously worded post I just through up there.

2002-03-19 11:06:40

gooch :

I may be late to this one but here's a couple of things:
On the Definition of Client: "One who secures the professional services of another" (thanks UC). I think what Vibe is saying is that is you just create a bunch of posters and throw them out there and tell a promoter or venue "here. do with them what you may." you can't call that person a client. Especially if they don't use them--they aren't necessarily "securing" your services if it is unsolicited. If you end up selling the posters yourself, you are-in effect, the only client.
As for Jermaine's last comment. I think "permission" is the key word here. There is something definitely wrong if you don't have permission from either the band or the venue or promoter. In effect you are NOT a poster artist you are a masturbator. So, um...I agree, Jermaine.
Oh sorry, I just saw where someone called FORUM. See you on the boards kids.

2002-03-19 11:05:28

Jermaine :

I mean a 'feather in the cap' in the same way thet theres something 'magical' about Griffin's HENDRIX poster...or Kozik's SOUNDGARDEN/PEARL JAM...pure melding of sound and vision to capture imagery that defines a band during a given time. I love the idea that when I begin every poster, it could be one of those defining pieces. It can also be one of those posters that captures a band just before they explode, and that increases your visibility as an artist. Its why Mucha jumped at the chance to do Bernhardt's show posters in the late 19th century. He knew what he was doing.
And no, posting 10 posters and selling them is NOT what Im saying. I think you can actually read what I said. I think, if youve been given permission to do a poster, as an artist, you are within your rights to make any aesthetic decision you want regarding how youll increase your visibility. There are things that KOZIK does that I will NOT do. But, I wont slag KOZIK or anyone else, because 'ethics' are so relative in this business. If Jermaine worries about what's produced on Jermaine's art table and where those posters go, then Jermaine will be all right.
Why do you do artwork? Who are you trying to please? Do you have to please ANYone? If someone had the permission to do a poster, did em and gave some to whoever hired them, and then turned around tomorrow and sold 10 to a dealer or a gallery, what is the ethical compromise there? Thats where I keep getting lost...because EVERY single pop-artist that had produced work for sale has done this. Modern artists in the fine art print field, like RAZZIA, do it ALL the time. Warhol did it. Trevor did it. Its not new. And in, of all things, ROCK AND ROLL (!) why is it so seedy and bad?

2002-03-19 10:56:28

MaximumFluoride :

Hey Art, I was agreeing with you. I hope you didn't think I was dissing you or something.
I was re-afrerming what you had said.
sorry for the confusion.

2002-03-19 10:50:15

Jermaine :

Vibranium... Very good points. Youre right: these suits and ties got all kinds of money to spend..IF theyre pushed. I still say, do what you gotta do to get in the door. Thats the only distinction that I think needs to be made here. LA ZONA ROSA isnt going to pay ANYONE to do a poster when KOZIK will do it for free. So to get going and get your name and work out there, do what you have to do. Its weird...whos being used? KOZIK, for doing this poster 'pro-bono'? Ive met Frank and he's pretty sharp. Im sure HE'D tell you that HE is the getting over...not speaking for the man, but c'mon. HE ain't getting used: Frank WILL profit from this. Ive done the occasional poster 'pro-bono', and I consider myself a fairly intelligent guy. If I came out of it feeling 'used', believe me...I wouldnt do it again. And I HAVE pushed, Vibranium. Ive told people, 'I need some $$$ to cover my artwork expenses' People know my work, and Ive been able to ask for and get $$$ sometimes...but, if I tried that 5 years ago, I think I wouldve got a handshake and a boot in the butt. I just say, be smart. Dont buy into that NO COMPROMISE ON ANYTHING ideal: people like that end up poor or martyred...and I dont want to be either.

2002-03-19 10:45:29

vibranium :

how is it a feather in your cap?!?! (i'm neccessarlity disagreeing with ya JR) but c'mon, tomorrow i can produce 10 posters for ANYONE and post them and sell them. is that what yer saying?!

2002-03-19 10:37:59

vibranium :

PRO BONO!?!?! posturing. rationalizing. justification. this is absolutely getting more and more preposterous. It's one thing to throw out a few jobs here and there to build a portfolio, I'm all for that. But to build a career on it?! Nolen is right these people have money, they're USING ya'll. Flat out, and ya'll know it and that’s where the rationalizing come from. i think there's a fear that the minute you said...'this is gonna cost ya' ALL your clients would say ' ok, forget it' would you design something for say...reebok. for free? just to sell the art on the side? Do ya'll apply this 'pro-bono' rule to anyone else?
Sorry if I'm being insulting...i'm absolutely not telling anyone what to do, just giving my thoughts.
same here UC, i love yer WHO poster...
I love the fact that I'm not the only one who feels this way, It means that there's hope that one day it'll become somewhat legitimized. maybe.

2002-03-19 10:34:11

Jermaine :

By the way, I like KOZIK...and I dont dig this. The layout is what I have a problem with.

2002-03-19 10:25:16

JGex :

FORUMS!!!!!

2002-03-19 10:19:52

Jermaine :

" I still think artists who dont' at least get some money from the venue (supplies aren't that much to ask, it's like 10-15 people through the door to cover costs for a decent sized run) areletting themselves get fucked. And not in the good way. "
Nolan, Ill just say that I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree. But, I think the 'ends justify the means' here. In the end, the artist can make money in a variety of ways, especially on a WELL-MANAGED overrun. Its different in different markets, too. In a lot of the independently owned venues I do work for, I do get paid some cash. Different amounts in different places, but I do. With the places that are being controlled by CLEAR CHANNEL-type monster machines, I take what I can get. But Ill admit, I wont turn down a poster that Ive been given the OK to do if its a really influential band. Some posters would just be great things to have done...'feathers in your cap', so to speak. I mean, if APHEX TWIN were playing a CC venue and they gave me permission, but no $$...man, Id be all over it. I love the band, and this is my shot. And, heres some 'real world' logic...take it how you want it: APHEX TWIN posters will sell. Period. Thats why I say the ends justify...yada yada. Because you WILL make money if you manage the overrun correctly.
My opinion.
"...letting themselves get fucked. And not in the good way. " (good, Nolan...'not in the good way' :)

2002-03-19 10:17:54

Nolen Strals :

I think this whole thing gets back to the motives for doing this:
are you (primarily) doing the work as:
an art print.
or an advertisement.
an ad can be artistic, and art can advertise, but let's not be wishy washy and gray area about this... there's people on here (and off of here, the poster world doens't revolve around this site) who do work mainly to sell it to collectors, galleries, etc. and there's people who do these mainly as ads and sure they sell a few leftovers (or maybe not).
This is going to color everyone's perspective.
I still think artists who dont' at least get some money from the venue (supplies aren't that much to ask, it's like 10-15 people through the door to cover costs for a decent sized run) areletting themselves get fucked. And not in the good way.
But of course a lot of the people who do that route sell their posters for like 25 bucks a piece or whatever and they overprint in the 100's so I guess they're not getting screwed, but it ends up screwing others in the long run who don't have the bank roll or the already huge name to take that kind of risk.
It just pisses me off coz it seems impure and so far from the original point of posters...which is to advertise. You could make a living if you charged clubs (who DO have the money, a lot just dont' like to share the wealth) a proper amount...but everyone is content to buy into their way of doing things.
Back to the original piece. At first I was not into this coz I thought Kozik was blindly combining elements of the cover of DeStijl (the stripes second album) with these characters that he just thought looked cool. Then I realized, oh, well the geometric shapes kinda mimic japanese architecture (the rice paper walls, etc). That's pretty cool I thought.

2002-03-19 10:08:44

Jermaine :

Hey Charlie... So you didnt go see Art Chantry after all? :) Art, a couple of the art institute guys who collect my stuff came by yesterday to buy some sketches...and they couldnt stop gushing about having met you. I almost went myself...but SxSW-related stuff kept me grounded.

2002-03-19 10:06:02

Jermaine :

Everyones making really great points. I just think its cool that theres a discussion going on and no ones getting 'insulted'. Seems like weve all grown some 'skin' around here. I do think that the bands, in many cases, dont feel theyre being screwed. These guys are on tour, in a bus, playing every little hole-in-the-all rat trap, and the majority of what they see are cheap xerox things. Then, they come into a venue and see really nice product made (and used!) to promote their appearance. Most of the bands Ive dealt with are fine with it: its their MERCHANDISING people back hone in the suits and ties that get pissed. I think it serves a purpose for the band, other than the obvious promotion of the show. It gives them 'street cred', which is something that they pay image-folks a whole lotta jack to maintain. It seems the 'punk' bands cherish this more than anything. Everyone wants to be Ian McKaye. I just think most bands dont feel like theyre being screwed and welcome the poster making (within reason). I think small runs done in the KOZIK format, like Charlie and Art talked about, hurt no one. I really believe that. And no one really need do this for free. As has been pointed out, youll make some stuff on the back-end, in marketing of your images, selling your artwork, etc. Ive done posters for bands where I just broke even (meaning that all the printing/film costs were covered) and then I'll license the artwork for a tshirt, or use it for an ad in some rag-mag, or do an art-print...and make some profit. I really do think this is a golden-age in concert posters...in the sense that ANYONE can get involved in making poster art with any look/style, and theyve got a shot at getting a firm foundation/ customer-base in this industry. That may be naive, but I really do believe it. And I agree: 'client' is a VERY relative term. I think the venue or promoter IS a client when they hire you. They have been hired by the band to use reasonable means to promote the event. So, they hire you. They are your boss: the band is just the product.

2002-03-19 10:01:52

Dan Apparatus :

One agreement that has yet to be addressed, but has sometimes worked for us in the past is creating poster work or an artist/promoter/club at an agreed price and handing off the posters (save a few APs) for THEM to sell and hopefully profit on. We've found that it makes it a bit easier to legitimize cost for posters if the "client" can imagine making some money themselves. Does anyone have anything to add about that? Legalities? Successes? Complete fucking failures?

2002-03-19 10:01:50

Ewing :

let's take this over to the message baord part of this site... DARWINISM

2002-03-19 09:59:20

JGex :

Exactly, Jason.
And "bingo", Uncle Charlie!

2002-03-19 09:55:09

uncle charlie :

Vibe, hey by the way , love your work.. defnition of Client.. "One who secures the professional services of another". Doesn't have to involve money transaction.

2002-03-19 09:52:26

jcooper :

you took the response right out of my mouth PM......
as a designer/artist, i'm sure a lot of you have done pro bono work because you knew the work would be seen by a lot of people and that opens the doors to other opportunities...
i would consider it a client........

2002-03-19 09:44:27

JGex :

It's called "pro bono"
And the venue IS the client if you're doing posters for them.

2002-03-19 09:42:59

vibranium :

no they're not. thats the point. they're getting shit for FREE how does that 'a client make

2002-03-19 09:40:50

jcooper :

vibe i see what you are saying to an extent but the venue is the "client"......that's why you wouldn't bypass them......
also, it's very rare that a band has ANY control over their image.....with the exception of bands like Tool who have total control.......the art department at the major label creates the band's "image" in most cases........
for example.....black sabbath's debut album had an upside cross in the inner cover........the band had no idea it was there until the album came out and suddenly they were satanists......
i'm also working with a guy who used to be in a major label band who said the same thing.......the record label created their artwork without their knowledge/approval so they ended up with a serial killer/death destruction image that they never wanted.......

2002-03-19 09:32:40

vibranium :

here's a thought...why even give them to the venue? Just produce them and sell them, hell skim the internet, find a show in france and do a poster for them, then sell it. ...rare 'french' white stripes show. why even bother? Not sure the persoanal ethics guiding that move.
i agree it's a bootleg. think about it, the band has no control over how they're being represented. would disney (sorry i live here, it's the first thing that comes to mind) allow someone to do 'beauty and the beast' imax show posters by each individual venue? NO WAY.
If deisgn is ever 'accredited' or regulated...this practice would DISSAPEAR (btw, i hate to see graphic design regulated)
i understand its the 'norm' and i know that many of the folks practicing it are extremely talented, and they have my respect. going along with the 'norm' just because it allows one to do wrong, or personally profit without the parties involved knowing...well thats wrong.
in my opinion.

2002-03-19 09:24:07

uncle charlie :

Howdy Art, and good point.. I should have added that permission from the band/management is required to then sell these prints. A vital point indeed. Once permission is granted, THEN nobody is getting screwed, or at least the band is allowing you to screw them at that point. And as long as they allow it, it seems to be OK..
Hope to catch you next time..

2002-03-19 09:15:11

jcooper :

one thing no one has mentioned (i don't think) is that the actual art still belongs to the artist.......to do whatever he pleases with afterwards.......
look at forbes, coop, etc. they take elements from the gigposter and isolate them into stickers, t-shirts, etc. and make (i'm guessing) a profit that way.......that's also part of the payoff for doing the "free" work...
go to posterpop.com and look at all of the art that was once on gigposters that are now stickers, t-shirts, tattoo flash, etc.

2002-03-19 09:12:24

art chantry :

uncle chuck - sorry i missed you, too. i would loved to have met you.
now, i want to disagree with a tiny part of what you said. the band technically gets screwed, too. they control their name, and anybody that sells product with their name is violating their rights. put it on a t-shirt (hell, put your own gig poster on a t-shirt) and you are open to paying royalties and usage to every name on the shirt. even frank won't do that. but if you take the venue/date off one of our posters we're selling a "nirvana" poster (or whatever) in the oodles of units without paying a cent to the folks who own the rights to that name. put the venue/place back on and we're selling an advertisment - an artifact - of the show. a huge grey area. granted many of the bands (most, actually) are pleased as punch to get a kozik (or whoever) poster to sell, and the promotion is good, but technically we are ripping them off. i saw so many bands get screwed in seattle (by EVERYBODY) that i made a personal vow not to take advantage of their naivete. i wouldn't even use free tickets unless i had to. i almost always paid, because at least a tiny bit of that money went to the bands who were the focal point of EVERYONES (including ours) activities.
so, i disagree there. for what it's worth. people who sell posters for product are technically bootleggers in my opinion. that's the way i see it.
art

2002-03-19 09:06:54

uncle charlie :

Vibe, hey brotha.. The poster to the promoter is the FREE part.. Notice I said I try to recoup printing cost through sales.. Most of the time printing cost are covered, and some times a profit is turned. Its the risk of business. I didn't say my posters were a free love offering.. Money goes out and money comes back. BUT the promoter thinks the posters are a free love offering, refering to Art's description of the music industry screwing everybody.. He's right about Frank. Genious, pure genious.. Frank developed a bluprint that works, and nobody gets screwed. Promoter gets free posters, artist then is responsible to make his/her own money back through the hard work of marketing to galleries/dealers, etc..Whats the big deal? This shit has worked for years now...nothing new under the sun..

2002-03-19 08:56:40

JGex :

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. -- Hunter S. Thompson

2002-03-19 08:50:18

art chantry :

oh, and ss (and others) -
choosing to go a route is noble and all that, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a GOOD choice. chosing to get screwed does not make it a good choice.
art

2002-03-19 08:37:50

art chantry :

markd - hi! how've ya been? good to see yer name again.
vibe - welcome to the real world. as horrible as it sounds, the music industry in all of its permutations is about EXPLOITATION. i once tried to sue a company that totally screwed me, and i found that to win, i'd have to prove that getting screwed by the music industry was not standard industry practise. can you believe that? i lost my suit right there. the industry precident is screwing everything that moves. the idea that promoters and clubs screw everybody is so standardized that "pay to play" is accepted as normal. why shouldn't we be treated as different? 'pay to play' is firmly entrenched in our biz. guys like kozik were brilliant in that he figured it out early and took advantage of "the game." and he's damn good and won. still wins. i'm surprised he hasn't opened up a reatil shop yet. he's amazing.
vibe - don't shocked - this is america. we're living under corporate fascists (look at the guys around W) and we're no longer citizens, we're consumers. it's sad, but not news.
art

2002-03-19 08:34:00

vibranium :

(THIS IS NOT ADDRESSED TO ANYONE SPECIFICALLY)
i think its wrong to compare an artist giving away shit to a promoter for tickets or sales rights to picasso. your creating commerical art for FREE. i think thats wrong. just wrong. the client is getting shit for FREE. your being used. it's demeaning isn't it? picasso would never do that, would he? would you do a free design/illustration for NIKE for a pair of sneakers? i think anyone doing it is selling themselves short. your giving shit away...just to go around the corner and sell it. your effectively saying, i cant sell artowork, so i need the bands name to help me sell my drawings. PLEASE understand, i'm not trying to offend - if i'm coming off strong, im shocked, it's just that this goes against EVERYTHING i was taught as a designer and a business man and a person, this is all going on so unapolgetically. everytime you give something away you erode it for everyone else, yourself and any future folks. it aint cool.
i don't get it, i really don't, but i know i'm not going to get anyone to understand or relate, or change there mind. so continue doing it.
BTW good getting along everyone, it's made it much easier to get these thoughts out and shared. esp. Art for the history, i think many of us learned something...

2002-03-19 08:20:02

supersucker :

im sorry. one thing you say is "i admit i'm pretty fortunate. BUT i had to really scrape to get there, and i owe that to all the freebie-doers out there. they've effectively destroyed the commissioned-poster-design industry. which is a shame, i find it more interesting when 'posters' have a client and go thru that exercise. "
isnt that putting down many artists here that CHOOSE to go that route? wouldnt you think they still have a client that commissions the concert-as charlie said he gets permission and promotes the show just like you. this is not a fight. im just understanding where you are coming from. its night and day it seems from some of the many artists on this board with huge names.

2002-03-19 08:17:02

supersucker :

thanks for your thoughts. i dont want to debate it. i just wanted to get a better grasp on where you are coming from.

2002-03-19 08:09:32

vibranium :

what i do isn't exploitive. i create an 'ad' for an event upon the request of a client. Someone has the opportunity to take it off a wall, ask the venue for it, ask me for it, etc. yes, i have sold, sold overruns, my personal samples. i figured out with shipping i've mad exactly $13 dollers selling at least 2 dozen posters. i don't make apologies for it. it's not my purpose for creating them and i KNOW they're being bought for the band not my 'talent'. Since it's real life has come and gone (it was created, used and disgarded) i sleep at night. ALSO and more importanly i DONT CHOOSE what poster i do, i am commissioned, so i can't be exploitive - even if i wanted to! i admit i'm pretty fortunate. BUT i had to really scrape to get there, and i owe that to all the freebie-doers out there. they've effectively destroyed the commissioned-poster-design industry. which is a shame, i find it more interesting when 'posters' have a client and go thru that exercise. i find 'corporate' music indusrty art more interesting (when it's good). If CD art, etc is good...that's a FEAT, cuz they had a client, they overcame odds. Remember i'm a bit jaded, cuz i'm from the design world.

2002-03-19 08:06:41

JGex :

Good point about the pricing markd. Gig posters usually cost less than outsider art or fine art prints.... I know I can afford to blow $25.00 on a gigposter, but there's no way I could slap down $250.00 on an outsider art print and justify that right now.....

2002-03-19 07:57:03

JGex :

Vib, you asked about doing art prints.... Kozik does do fine art prints without band names on them.... we own a bunch of them. And that's also something that Drowning Creek is looking forward to doing.... we already have quite a few art print projects in the planning/design stages right now.... we don't want to do just gig posters.

2002-03-19 07:37:51

art chantry :

ouch!

2002-03-19 07:33:21

supersucker :

cool. risking a debate. i was asking vib those questions and am still curious.

2002-03-19 07:30:27

art chantry :

ss -
agreed. and i'll try not to get so touchy about what happens on this site. i'm sorta new to this computer stuff and this is the only chatroom thing i've ever articipated in. nuances of speech get confused in email a lot, and i may easily have misinterpereted what you said. if so, i apologize.
art

2002-03-19 07:26:15

supersucker :

and ill continue to love your artwork. and vibs too.

2002-03-19 07:23:37

supersucker :

agreed. i was asking hypothetical questions directly to vib asking his thoughts. i was responding to his post. where he made statements that posed legit questions. from the history here vib is great at defending himself and didnt think i attacked him at all. i just asked questions. i dont want to fight at all and didnt think i was. thanks.

2002-03-19 07:22:20

art chantry :

ss - let's stop this now. i know you didn't say any unkind words to me. but your post in the conversation was vicious, and it pissed me off. i have an unfortunate habit (shockingly) of fighting for other people's rights. sure, it didn't affect me, but you're saying i shouldn't defend vibe?
do you understand my point? it's not that i'm picking a fight, i'm telling you to back down or i'm going to rb you.
art

2002-03-19 07:17:03

supersucker :

art. i did not say one unkind word to you. if i pissed you off that is odd. i dont mind being called names. that is fine. i just dont do it myself. i love your works. so its bumming that an artist i like blasts me. but ill live. thanks.

2002-03-19 07:13:41

art chantry :

ss- i don't know, for some reason i've gotten real touchy on this site. can't really figure out why...
look, you were picking a fight over picky lttle crap like you thought it was cool. hey leave that work to people who've already done themselves in, like me. as the poster dominatrix sez - be nice. i'm really tired of being targeted and seeing people like vibe and niles and anybody who might defend an idea being slaughtered just for fun.
so, i'm sorry if i came on strong, but you pissed me off, and i let you know it.
art

2002-03-19 07:11:11

supersucker :

art i dont feel like fighting. i thought i was respectful to vib. heck vib even asked if he was explaing his thought clearly. i might have took it wrong. but wasnt disrespectful.
as for the assault on you. i think you do a good enough job yourself. life is too short to namecall and act disrepectful. though i do think you revel in fighting.

2002-03-19 07:06:46

philaarts.com :

vib you asked me specifically
"so if kozik sells a poster to someone are they buying it for the band? Philarts, do you get a sense of this? Do 'collectors' just buy kozik cuz they like HIS art. if so couldn't kozik just 'paint' - couldn't he do a 'poster' (i.e a painting) without the type, dates, etc...and people would still buy it, no? the poster seems like a front, covering up something. "
as for why people buy posters i would have to ask each individual why. i do know people buy for both reasons, ie the band or the artist... and sometimes their favourite artist does the band they love... double good to them.
when you mention is it a cover up for something. not sure where that is. just because type is on a print doesnt make it a cover up. at least thats how i see it. the artist creates a poster, the fans decide ultimately if its a print they want on their wall. and of course only if the artist choses if it will be an item available for people to put on their wall. many great artists do it many other ways.
the debate if an artist is really good, then he can make a living on his fine art prints soley has been brought up before in other forums. i cant speak for artists. that is something that is individual. people say "yeah that radiohead poster or pearl jam or tool poster rocks, but if the band name wasnt on the print they wouldnt be able to cash in" that thinking again i hear, but again, its the artists decision and the buyers who chose to buy.
but as for yourself. you chose to get paid x amount of dollars to do a gig, then the story is over. you are fine with that. but just because others do it differently doesnt make it wrong. peace brotha. still love the images you make.

2002-03-19 07:01:44

Nolen Strals :

I have no problem I guess with artists who want to work for free, but the one problem I see with it is this, those of us who aren't making a living off of it, who can't do 500 extra prints...when other people offer to do it for free, when all we would ask is like...cost of supplies (which is nothing)...it eliminates us from getting any work..or at least severely cuts down on it. But hey, whatever... I'm not whining or complaining here, we can all work how we want to... and honestly I see it more as a problem of clubs being unappreciative and being tightwads rather than supporting people who are helping them out.
Ah, when the indie scene starts screwing you like the majors do...aint' life grand?
Oh, and I appreciate art's history lesson on how the business changed over the years...I always wondered about that stuff.

2002-03-19 07:01:10

uncle charlie :

also like to ad about getting paid.. I do my posters for free too. No promoter pays me shit, except for free tickets. I give them 50 - 100 posters for free, or for the right to do the poster. So I take full finacial risk on printing cost and I try to get that back through sales. And yes I reprint.. I was sitting in the pizza place the other day looking at a Picasso reprint on the wall and thought to myself, "This guy has been reprinted time and time again, is he any lesser of a legendary genious, hell no"

2002-03-19 06:58:08

uncle charlie :

On the DESIGN/Drawing thoughts I'd like to ad that a good designer makes a good illustrator.. So for you people who think your on the side of the fence that posters are all about "drawing" think again.. By drawing you have also "designed" SO you tattoo artist weirdos are also "designers" just by the fact you put pen to paper and create shapes, text, etc..
Art, missed you in Houston, would like to catch you next time..

2002-03-19 06:53:03

art chantry :

supersucker -
here comes and OPINION (for all those keeping track out there) yer a dumbshit!
now, here comes an observation - ss - i don't think you understood what vibe was saying. so listen to him this time, and maybe you'll understand what he's trying to get across.
i'll leave space below for the aasault against art chantry. feel free to fill it up.
- art

2002-03-19 06:52:47

supersucker :

so vib according to your "logic" any poster sold by the artist and the money goes into their pocket is exploitive. that calls out almost every large artist on gigposters. so then they are all exploitive. your opinion is of course respected. but vib you mention you get paid by the promoter and dont do it for the money. if that is the case you could never sell one poster. or you would be explotive. how about using the images here on gigposters and in your portfolio?
why not just show fine art? isnt that using the bands to futher your portfolio?

2002-03-19 06:48:44

art chantry :

one last thing - the bands find it an honor if kozik does a poster for one of their shows. it's sort of a right of passage - sort of moving up to the bigtime when kozik does you. that's what the bands gets out of it.

2002-03-19 06:40:29

art chantry :

max - go back and read my post. i know chantry-bashing is time-honored practice on this site, but go back and read the damn post. i'm SHARING KNOWLEDGE and i'm SHARING EXPERIENCE. i'm not passing judgement, i'm describing how the history changed. i'm not complaining, i'm describing what happened. i call it a business, because that i what i was trained to think it was and it was how the world was at that point. that's all. i don't really understand why you guys think i'm such an asshole for simple sharing with you.
vibe - i don't think of DESIGN as a drawing medium - i think of it as an assemblage medium. i think of illustration as a drawing medium. you don't draw design, you compose design. but you do draw illustrations and type and pictures etc. etc. see the difference for me? it's how i approach this stuff and it's what makes my stuff so interesting to people. i'm not saying it's the only way, it's just my way, and i like it that way. i like drawing, but i never have a need for it - i used to be a great sketch artist - i was even a darn good cartoonist (i started off as a kid trying to draw the green goblin and frankenstein comics), but i've lost those specific skills as i approached my work from this other angle. but i mantained the skills of composition, proportion, figure-ground relationship, etc. etc. i learned how to think with my hands through drawing.
frank (kozik) DOES re-draw these images - rather thoroughly. he makes them look like the source, but they are largely re-drawn and re-interpereted through that process.
art "mr." chantry
ps - oh, and people buy kozik because he's prolific, colorful, funny, intelligent, snotty, available, and cuz he's kozik.

2002-03-19 06:37:58

vibranium :

if posters are 'fine art' then it's the lamest fine art ever. because it doesn't rely on the artist. sales are based on the band first, artist second. no?
so if kozik sells a poster to someone are they buying it for the band? Philarts, do you get a sense of this? Do 'collectors' just buy kozik cuz they like HIS art. if so couldn't kozik just 'paint' - couldn't he do a 'poster' (i.e a painting) without the type, dates, etc...and people would still buy it, no? the poster seems like a front, covering up something.
see? am i explaining this correctly, i'm not trying to be argumentive, i'm curious if anyone else sees my logic.
a poster is to sell a performance. it's an advertisment. Either the 'artist' is doing it for a client, or for sale. if it's for sale then it's really the band selling it. if it's the band selling then the 'artist' is being exploitive.

2002-03-19 06:20:40

supersucker :

oh boy. :)
sooooooooo um IF kozik had this idea. so drawing isnt important trucker.
re: "designers" posts in past postings. this is fun!

2002-03-19 04:40:44

robschwager :

Wonder where Kozik swiped THESE images from? Probably ran outta stuff in his Preston Blair book.

2002-03-19 04:32:49

supersucker :

fluoride nails it. some people worry too much how others conduct their business. this is freelance art-passing judgement is lame. artists i have talked to have taken tons of gigs for free knowing it is a smarter move than getting a few hundred bux. so what? if they are comfortable.

2002-03-19 02:53:55

MaximumFluoride :

Poster busines..uh..er art has always been pretty much how Mr Chantry describes it as far as I know. I know for a fact though that some of the bigger guys do actualy get paid everytime they do a poster. I think the majority of designers work under the Kozik formula. At least most of the guys I know do.
Everyone handles their business differently. If you can get paid up front thats great. If you have enough selling power in the market to do them for free and make your money in later, thats also great. I think the trick is to be able to do both and I know some guys who DO do that.
No one said life was gonna be fair or easy especialy for an artist/designer.
I'm like you Vib. I do this because I love poster art. I would have given up long ago if I was in it for the cash.

2002-03-18 15:42:32

vibranium :

wow...history. interesting...
i'd feel better if my stuff was 'rarer' - but i know thats little concillation for having empty coffers.
organizing the selling, to me, is distracting...too much of a distraction for my feeble brain.

2002-03-18 14:57:19

vibranium :

for me it's not the $$$ - i think all thes talented folks dserve more hen to grovel and scrape to get a commission. i mean 'we're' getting plyed. y'know? Even me to a degree...perhaps to mre of a degree then many perhaps less.
man how do you solve that one? thatza big matza! Oy vey!

2002-03-18 14:52:32

art chantry :

vibe - as i understand it, kozik does work for free, but under complex circumstances. he checks out shows around the country and chooses either shows he likes, or shows with hot bands (depending). he then approaches the promoter/club and says "i'll send you 100 posters to do with as you wish , sell, post, burn 'em - don't care. i'll print up a larger run and sell those through my distribution network" clubs say - you betcha (free kozik posters? wow!). kozik prints up 500 more to sell - and his network can and does sell them. he makes money, club gets cool posters, bands don't have a say because it's technically a gray area between product and advertising. i understand he does occaisionally do reprints on hot sellers.
frank essentially changed rock posters forever. and he's brilliant. before kozik clubs contacted artists to do poster/flyers and they were very cheap affairs printed in one or two colors - often the promoters or bands did them by themselves to save money (there was no money). that was the era i grew up in and is now the 'classic' punk flyer era. since kozik, rock posters have become multi-color art print collectibles sold as limited editions to fans and collectors as art or as souvenirs. very dramatic change. after kozik no one would pay me to do posters anymore - i had to do them for free (or incredibly cheap) and then the clubs/bands/whoever would sell them instead of posting them. the result really killed off my feeble income. i had to switch to packaging (thank you estrus) in order to pay for the posters i loved to make. because anybody in seattle could pull them off the wall for free and the clubs/dealers sold them outside seattle, i had no market left. besides, i couldn't afford to do multi-colors posters (i still had to pay for printing if the club wouldn't pop for it - thank god for brian at blt giving me breaks all those years) and i could only afford to keep about ten of each of my posters - that's why they are so hard to find for collectors - i have none to sell. it's amazing how that all worked out. kozik, in effect, killed off his competition through his marketing strategy.he was brilliant, but he really changed they this stuff is done.
art chantry

2002-03-18 14:51:14

vibranium :

in't get it. it's a fucking stupid business. and anyone who does it feeds into and it'll never stop, how can there ever be respect? payment? we need to band together and all at once say NO FEE NO POSTER. jeez, does that mean that Kozik does shit for free? So all the suspicions and confirmation i hinted at earlier that i got BLASTED for are true? theres no fucking client. Am i missing something still?

2002-03-18 14:04:50

philaarts.com :

the important thang.. if you are happy, and it works for you... wonderful!!!! ive seen artists not get paid for a million + selling album... and then they can do a poster and do better... it really depends on what you prefer and being happy with it!
and you make perty pictures!

2002-03-18 12:45:34

Nolen Strals :

I guess I'm just spoiled coz the promoters I've dealt with have paid me (though not much, but at least enough to do a little more than cover supplies) and on top of that they encouraged me to sell the extras at the shows... It just seems like it should be that way... I don't do runs of 300 and dont' charge 35 bucks for my posters...so doing a freebie for a club just ain't possible for me, but if it works for others, more power to em I guess.

2002-03-18 12:43:37

philaarts.com :

hey buddy, you know i dont slag you... you are a baltimore guy.. my fav city ...
yep it is free promotion for the club... as for selling etc.. i dont want to comment for other artists... everyone benefits from what i observe... from sales, perks, etc... but i dont comment on other artist pocketbooks...
but i do know that with clubs that do pay (and its a fucking shitty amount), they then dont let the artist sell... and from feedback alot of artists prefer this route, as they can make a nice profit. and the shame of getting paid peanuts for a gig.
but then again, thats the artists choice. i have signed deals for 1,000 bux to 5,000 for shows, and ive arranged shows where the artist doesnt get paid and makes more then that... its hit and miss u know?
some of the largest posters were non paid gigs for the artist, and if they took the measly artist fee and couldnt sell them, it would have been a shame.

2002-03-18 12:38:45

Nolen Strals :

Yeah I know you're not slagging me phil, I just... It seems fucked up that the club doesn't pay for it, like it's just free promotion for them... Can the artists at least sell posters at the show? I'm just curious...
Also, just coz only 3 people run a club doesn't mean it's not big. With the size of shows they get, money is being made, and it just seems like it would be only right to pay people who produce promo materials for you.
Also, not a knock on either artist who did a poster for this show, but it is situations like this with the Troc not paying for posters where you get very weird things like two posters for one show...which...just seems...weird...whatever...I think I'm way off the point of the comment board, so I'll just stop typing.

2002-03-18 12:26:02

philaarts.com :

when i refer to the ones being done without permission, i refer to other clubs, not the troc..
i actually find it cool when more than one poster is done for a show, adds to it, and heck if the artists are happy... im happy..
jim altieri when he has time knocks out posters for the troc, and just does it for fun and goes to the show.. hes a great guy -and will do a troc poster everyonce in awhile... its cool....(the other poster done for the troc)

2002-03-18 12:24:38

philaarts.com :

lol... yep, its kozik and i think its cool... the clubs up here and most of the clubs in nyc dont pay for posters.
ive arranged alot of posters for the troc as they have asked me to do so, they have a full time staff of 3... and hire security.. they are in no way "big"
the funny thing is i have done posters for madison square garden, and the deal was even worse...
artists know the deal goin in, and make a choice, the club has always been cool to me and the artists have enjoyed the agreement.
but man, there are TONS of posters that are "official promo" by HUGE artists that the clubs dont pay for, not just the troc..
i prefer not to talk about other artists or clubs, but this is in no way different from tons of other clubs...
then of course there is the poster made without the clubs permission, that one is the shady thing to me. just standing up for them cause they have always been cool... they asked me to do what i do with the factory and are a great independant club.
nolen youre a cool dude, so you know im not slaggin ya... its just how they do things.

2002-03-18 12:20:49

Nolen Strals :

The Troc doesn't pay for posters...you have to give them some and hope you can sell the rest...you know...for the "honor" or whatever of working for "THE Trocadero" ...or something? for a big club this seems like a shady/crappy way to work.

2002-03-18 11:56:29

vibranium :

i like it too actually, but can someone please fucking explain there being more then one poster for this show? How fucking rich is the Troc.? I don't get. Am i overlooking the obvious?

2002-03-18 10:27:21

Nolen Strals :

when this came up on the random poster generator I looked to see who did it and was really surprised to see Kozik's name next to it. A lot different from so much stuff I've seen from him...of course I havent' seen any work from him in a while... Nice to see something different come from him. I still can't believe it's a Kozik....weird.

2002-03-18 10:09:00