This might be the most thought out comment I have ever made regarding the "metal poster" dabate.
it is what I am almost always trying to convey when I make comments about posters fitting metal bands.
"Who says it needs to be pushed forward? Who says it doesn't get pushed forward all the time? The thing is that you need to push it in the proper direction. Just pushing and changing for the sake of it is wrong. You need to know your shit to be able to know where it needs to go. If you don't know where you are, you have no idea where you need to go."
This poster has a severd arm that is burning on it....can't you freaking "metal heads" see that. And if you put those colors and texture on the gas tank of a chopper...I mean - damn that's metal man. "Wink" comment 140
so many good quotes.
but i found this the best one so far.
This is 'graphic design.' Audience must be considered. This poster isn't only about you and your feelings. This isn't a journal. It's an ad. "
"I'd like to think that if I were making posters for indy rock bands and was getting it all wrong that the comments and suggestions people made would have some effect on me."
We'd all think you were being ironic. That's what we do when we don't get something . . . pseudo-intellectualism beats the inferiority complex of believing a designer is talking down to your entire scene.
Although this designer seems to have imlied they intended on pissing metal heads off, so who knows.
You can all suck it. :wink:
well...i think its a nice poster and all. BUT (and here's what seems to be the catch with a few of us) i cant get around thinking that it doesnt really suit H.O.F. i just tend to think of more "mideval" imagery as far as they are concerned. the lyrics bring quite a different type of subject matter to my mind, thats all. i do agree with what fisher said about new ideas only workin with certain types of bands, like dillinger escape plan. as far as the image...i kind of get lost as to whats goin on above the arm & skull area.
Metal and hardcore music are extremely important to me. I have my own ideas of how it should be represented. When I see stuff that I don't like I say something about it. I don't expect that people will listen or even care, but I am going g to say what I want to about it anyway.
" Seriously asking, how do you guys who specialize in metal posters intend on pushing the poster scene forward if you are so reluctant to take change. I almost wonder if Sasha's poster would be alright if it were metallic silver and red ink on black French paper? Would that make it "more" metal?"
Who says it needs to be pushed forward? Who says it doesn't get pushed forward all the time? The thing is that you need to push it in the proper direction. Just pushing and changing for the sake of it is wrong. You need to know your shit to be able to know where it needs to go. If you don't know where you are, you have no idea where you need to go.
And as sad as it might sound this poster would probably look better to me if it were black red silver and white. The colors on this are kind of a sticking point. They don't feel metal at all. I know that is lame, but it is how I feel about it.
It's the subtle little things that make the difference. Just slapping a skull on it doesn't make a poster metal.
Like most of these posters I complain about I think this design is good for what it is. But, like Richie said, you could put Lucero on here and it would work nearly as well.
uhm...as someone who given and gotten tons of healthy and unhealthy crit...let me just say that you guys need to stop worrying about this.
-1st major lesson-
NOT EVERYONES GOING TO LIKE YOUR STUFF
THEY DONT NEED A 'REASON' TO NOT LIKE IT
AFter that, just put your stuff up and forget it. Its that simple.
You guys getting all deep into this 'design'/'illo' thing...you know...just do your thing and let other folks do theres. Cause WHO CARES? Its all VANITY anyways, baby. Dust in the wind.
Do your thing, try to find a little happiness doing it.
People dont dig your stuff? FINE. They aint got no 'constructive' reasons? FINE.
Yall know how this place is. If you cant take the debate, dont post your stuff.
You aint gonna always get the criticism you find 'healthy' on here. A lotta times it'll be given with layers of motive beneath it.
DEAL WITH IT.
You want to go far in this business and succeed for a while? TEACH YOURSELF TO DETACH. Otherwise youll stress out and your heart'll explode. Be happy. Throw it out and move.
Listen to the crit, get what you can get, and move on to yr next poster...
i havent taken anything as an insult, honest. sometimes my typing misleads what should really be heard.
the point i was trying to get at was this:
in a situation such as this, where there is an obvious split in opinion...some people think it fits. some people think it doesnt. this is a great thing! what i simply want to see more of is a real specificity in criticism, not just the "It fits because i say so, or It fits because of this (insert song clip)." right?
So someone doesnt think it fits, or they dont like it...
Great, Now tell me why. Tell me how you feel it should be changed, or maybe how you see it. Give good examples of prints you feel work. That is the kind of criticism i enjoy. It's how we learn. That's the kind of discussion i get anything from.
Here, we for the most part just had folks saying
"i dont think it fits."
and for anyone's sake, especially with posters, it really is just a matter of opinion. my favorite poster artists are all the "designy" type guys. it's just what i like to see.
but jay ryan is #1 in my book. hands down. *i just wanted to add that in*
see thats just it
you do not want to hear advice and take it as an insult
i said i like the poster just not for HOF and all youre others are really designed pretty good
to me the bands style and look and feel should be the most important thing
i have a job right now for a big well known touring arena act for t shirts and i was given a style guide to adhere too
thats the way it goes now if this was an art piece i'd say great
im fine, holmes. there's nothing to be taken from this, i think that was my point.
you dont like the poster? dont get one. there's lots of stuff i like, lots i dont. that's the way the world turns. thanks anyway.
I haven't belittled you or what you've done. I'm approaching this from an academic standpoint.
This is 'graphic design.' Audience must be considered. This poster isn't only about you and your feelings. This isn't a journal. It's an ad.
richie, i respect your views, i do, but this whole style over whatever stuff is really getting old. why? BECAUSE EVERYONE IS GUILTY OF IT. it's what we do. our posters are our style.
and we all put a ton of time and heart into our work, it sucks to see it belittled in such a way.
richie could you please calm the hell down. you have more negative things to say about posters than anyone i know, especially one who has done little to exceed any of the requirements you say ive failed at.
i dont really care about your principle, or how much you may dislike my work. please keep your negativity away from what i do. i find it terribly offensive and completely useless. youre offering no constructive criticism and are wasting your breath. i wasnt attempting to do anything "cutting edge" or "genious" or "huge risk" as youve put it.
it's a goddamned poster. and you dont like it. well great.
the next time you do something i like, i'll let you know. until then, please stay away from what i put alot of my goddamned time into. thanks.
You said a whole lot but you don't get it. You look at this stuff from an outsider perspective. Sasha made a poster from an outsider perspective.
This hasn't pushed a singe envelope. This style of poster is not 'cutting edge.' It's not genius. This isn't a huge risk. It's boring.
And it doesn't fit.
GESTALT PRINCIPLE is a bigger concept than only what is on the paper.
This is style over substance.
I don't care how many metal shows you've stood in the back of.
I kept an open mind for this and other related threads (Cross' HOF, Cannibal Corpse, etc.), and listened fully to opinions from both sides, and I am starting to feel like those that always completely attack posters like this are offering a pretty close-minded view on things. This has nothing to do with my taste in music; in fact, I have probably been to as many metal shows as I have been to indie rock ones.
I'll be the first to say that Fisher is on top of his game when it comes to his genre of music, which is metal. But some of the comments are forcing a stagnation in design with this type of music. It seems like the artists designing for indie rock and noise rock are a lot more willing to try completely different approaches and styles. Sometimes, it sparks a ton of copycats into following. Other times, people will kind of just 'look over' it, or make a simple comment that the print was kind of lame for the band, and people learn.
It seems like as soon as someone designing a metal poster steps away from red+black, blood, skulls, or any other imagery that's been recycled a hundred thousand times before, the 'metal' guys start jumping down the artists throat. What is your hope? That in 5 years, going to see HOF or Mastodon or something will yield the same, tired old poster that is basically a collage from the past?
Seriously asking, how do you guys who specialize in metal posters intend on pushing the poster scene forward if you are so reluctant to take change. I almost wonder if Sasha's poster would be alright if it were metallic silver and red ink on black French paper? Would that make it "more" metal?
but it is subjective because it is a piece of art, not just an ad. that's what's so great about all this, everyone likes certain things.
i'm really not interested in debating, or proving points, but i do understand what youre saying. i understand what everyone is saying.
"like folks have said all day, it's all subjective. hey, i made this poster, and i like it. i guess that's all that matters."
Actually you are creating an ad for a band or venue their opinion matters way more than the artists. that's the job of a graphic designer, to please the client which in this case is the band.
If it was a piece of art and not an ad i would say that your opinion was the only thing that matters, because it's your art.
people got amped while i was gone! christ! im really sorry if i made anyone mad!! its what i get for leaving all day after posting what i did. it was supposed to be a little sarcastic, it's why i put "metal" and "metalheads" in quotations. silly me. and i do kinda like the band. theyre fun live, i just dont have any cds. i think i was trying to make a tongue in cheek point. please dont hate me!
like folks have said all day, it's all subjective. hey, i made this poster, and i like it. i guess that's all that matters.
damn, you guys had some intense discussion today!
i dunno, i was just trying something different. i actually really liked jason cross' high on fire print with the wild tree stuff, and that was a huge area of debate. people get so worked up about whats appropriate imagery for bands, but isnt the whole point of doing posters creating what each individual feels is best or interesting? take a look at AOMR, how many different bands have posters with chicks or skulls or flames or etc etc? it's funny how it's the metal genre that people get especially worked up about. i think i was just trying to poke fun at that earlier with the "hey, if you metal heads hate it, then maybe ive accomplished what i meant to accomplish."
again, sorry for pissing anyone off.
nothing but love!
"This poster just doesn't seem to capture the sound of this to me.
Yep. This poster is just fine...not perfect...but it works.
Of course I'm high on whale ribs right now.
I'd like to think that if I were making posters for indy rock bands and was getting it all wrong that the comments and suggestions people made would have some effect on me. Rather than me just continuing off in the wrong direction because i simply wanted to do whatever I felt like.
So we can keep discussing it all day long, but CLEARLY people are going to do whatever they desire regardless.
Really, it's good to discuss this stuff and I would guess it's helpful for people just getting into poster work.
I know that that is Richie's true goal...to help people. He is a kind, kind man. And gentle. And loving. Probably has soft, strong hands...wait.
"Anyways...this poster could easily say Death Cab for Cutie or Lucero or what not and have the exact same impact."
Actually, no. We would've never talked about the poster as much if that were the case.
In the world of metal it is very true. For the most part anyway. Not always.
I mean with a band like HOF it is more true than not.
With a band like, say... Dillinger Escape Plan new ideas work well.
The point is you need to know who you are dealing with and make appropriate descisions. Just doing whatever you want to do might not be the best choice. A little research into the band can usualy give you an idea of how they might feel about a given concept. 5 seconds of research into HOF would tell you that this might not be the most effective concept for them
Ferg's poster contains appropriate imagry and style, yet moves in a different dirrection stylisticly from the standard HOF ideas.
None of us can speak for an entire genre of music. That's ridiculous. I just think it's amazing that some people are so against doing something even a little bit different for certain bands/genres/whatever. That, to me, is as Richie said "kinda boring and repetive"
I have an idea for a High on Fire poster that is totally new and I hope to use one day. That's why I'm not gonna say it.
Thing about my idea is that it is completely out of the conventional metal standard yet completely in it at the same time.
And it wouldn't work for any other band.
"I think a lot of your posters are kinda boring and repetive as you use the same visual language pretty consistently with slight variation."
I couldn't agree more. But I wasn't talking about our posters.
well, richie, all your shit looks alike too, but that's called style (or a lack of)
same could be said for anybody on this site..
these "not metal enough" arguments are shit, and boring, and stupid.
grow up dudes.
Hey Michael A...I don't think what you are referring to as 'new ideas' are all that new. I think a lot of your posters are kinda boring and repetive as you use the same visual language pretty consistently with slight variation.
I should note that my first impression having seen this was that the band would be of the 4AD sound.
But what the hell do I know?
P.S. Since were all tossin around the Anchorman shizzle......
"I love lamp"
"Well, I mean, considering the amount of time I spend working on/thinking about poster work...I guess I give a rat's ass.
And a donkey's balls.
And a penguin's neck"
And a whale's vagina
don't forget that :wink:
If you fellows are letting a poster talk down to you you have some serious self esteem issues.
Jeezus. You fucking homophobic, dumbass metal dudes are slow as shit.*
*joke - sarcasm - just kidding - shapow!
It is the whole "talking down to the dumb metalheads" attitude. These "designery" "metal posters have always had that tone in them to me.
I think that is why it bugs me.
Like, people who listen to metal need to be taught something. "
yhe artist even said it them selves read the post from the artist
sitty additude if you ask me
Personally, that is... subjectively, I think that the image in the back works better than the actual type that spells "High on Fire." Something about that typeface spoils it for me, in regards to being a "metal" show poster.
I think that a poster should be representative somewhat of the bands sound/genre.
But if you rely too heavily on the percieved conventions of a genre, whats to stop the inevitable distilation of that style down into a kind of parody?
It is the whole "talking down to the dumb metalheads" attitude. These "designery" metal posters have always had that tone in them to me.
I think that is why it bugs me.
Like, people who listen to metal need to be taught something.
I'm a fan of High on Fire and think that this poster is just fine. Great in fact. If I saw this poster in a store I'd be more stoked that High on Fire was playing than irritated by wether or not the poster fit the band. Which this does, in my opinion.
thing i don't get is why do a poster for a band you don't like, this pisses me off to no end and this is the reason you end up with posters not fitting the band
i never do work for something i'm not familliar with/or don't like
example i would never do a hip hop poster because i really do not like hip hop
the noise rock thing we were talking about the other day is something i can't do either so i leave it up to someone who can although i guess i do enjoy sme bands that people classify as noise rock
this is a grat poster but it shouldn't be used for high on fire
its tat simple
" i know these "metal" bands and you "metal heads" feel like everything must have a certain look. hey, if you metal heads hate it, then maybe ive accomplished what i meant to accomplish."
You set out to make a poster that the fans and the band would hate?
That sounds smart.
actually, im not a fan of the band either. forgive me for trying something different. sorry it doesnt have obvious flames or gothic bleeding text. i know these "metal" bands and you "metal heads" feel like everything must have a certain look. hey, if you metal heads hate it, then maybe ive accomplished what i meant to accomplish. chill out, guys. they're only posters.