mdaines - i had no problems with mikes comments...i was interested in his opinion and wouldnt want him to just tell me its good...I honestly give a shit about his opinion...and i had told him a day or so before to be looking out for this. thanks for the support though...but mike is really coming from a good place and i nvere took any of his comments as negative, just constructive.
Mxfluo: I guess I call it "insecure" because you mention metal kids not caring about artwork and imagery, yet you harp on how posters such as this that don't embody the aesthetic will somehow HURT such a scene. I kind of got the impression that there is supposed to be this feeling of needing to CARRY THE TORCH in terms of AESTHETICS, which is fucking ridiculous.
I think it's clear (and it has been my observation, in Calgary) that for dedicated scenes, the type of imagery used in a poster doesn't affect things much at all. People are looking for a name, or names connected to those they know, etc. This poster sort of doesn't satisfy that, since the information is very small.
But if this IS important, what else do you call the idea (or the concern or perhaps the fear) that a poster such as this will reflect poorly on a venue or a band? Is HERALDRY more important to the metal scene than others? Is the conformance of heraldry very important as well?
As an aspiring poster-maker, I kind of have this idea that it's important to make INTERESTING POSTERS. Is this NAIVE of me? I'm part of a scene here in my city, and the BEST compliments I get have been people saying that a few of the posters I've made look very different from anything else they've seen put up as advertising for shows. Then again, I'm active in a niche (the open promotion collective that I'm part of) that seems to be willing (within logical and logistical limits) to give any band (and most any kind of band) who asks a show. There is a fairly wide variety, I think.
I must note that here, the (sometimes Christian) hardcore (I hear what I'm talking about is actually called "metalcore" or something) bands that sometimes play on bills that have nothing else similar will draw a lot of kids from "that" scene, no matter what the poster looks like.
And finally, I must say that I don't really know why this poster WOULDN'T attract any person's attention. I mean, it attracted yours, Mxfluo. You have the first comment.
Kendra - i tried a bombing military thing...skull, murder scene shit and it all felt so obvious and just without effort...and i just didnt feel like it was it.
i did this with way more black and it just killed and composition...
so after many different looks and angles this one got worked out of seeing some ocean paintings and i went with it and felt it...
I really respect Fisher cause he isn't scared to speak his mind.
I love seeing both sides and Mike brings that. I may not always agree with him but thatís what makes things interesting.
Still I like this poster and think a lot of others will too once they hold the screenprinted goodness in their hands.
mike...i really appreciate your comments and truely have digested them. dont change that ...it is needed...I feel if this only served to crete a platform for debate then it has done a good job.
i think more than anything the discussion has proven things are not black and white.
anyway...dont hold your crits back ever...you know i can take em and i hope you know I appreciate them.
this is the kind of discussion i really love reading on here. (the fisher/cross side of it). i'm siding with fisher on this one. this is a beautiful painting, and the subject matter is certainly appropriate for high on fire, but the execution is inappropriate. from ten feet away on a wall, it doesn't scream "viking funeral!!!"
it screams "beautiful impressionistic painterly screenprint with small text!"
it's okay though. i made a lame melvins poster once. didn't look half as good as this, but it just wasn't "melvins," you know?
"You really paint a DEPRESSING picture of the metal scene, MaximumFluoride. Is everyone really such an insecure dork? Sometimes I like such imagery as you speak of, but often it is VERY BADLY DONE.
Jason Cross, however, did not paint a depressing picture here."
Insecure? What did I say that was insecure? I am anything but that. I am simply stating what I know from years in the scene. Things people not in the scene might not know.
I agree plenty of that stuff is really poorly done. The thing is, those people LIKE it that way. They understand it. Thye don't think it looks bad. It is important to them that they can identify with something immedietly. If not.... it doesn't fit into thier scene. It's a pretty simple concept. It applies to EVERY scene in the world.
Are most metal scenesters dorks? yep. But most music scenes are full of dorks. It's just the way it is. Nothing special about it.
Funny how some simple conversation gets me called names. I don't recall calling anybody names in this thread.
my friends and i had a discussion about his once. one of my friends called my gal (though not my gal at the time) 'kinda hot.' now, what he meant was 'very hot,' but he didn't want to come across overly crass. so yeah, i think richie likes you.
:o sometimes i wonder if you guys would even think my opinion is valid... i've seen every poster on here since we started it day one and i still feel fucking insecure that i dont meet the validity quotients.
You really paint a DEPRESSING picture of the metal scene, MaximumFluoride. Is everyone really such an insecure dork? Sometimes I like such imagery as you speak of, but often it is VERY BADLY DONE.
Jason Cross, however, did not paint a depressing picture here.
these will be available after the show on the 8th of august...if you are interested in this email me and I will add you to my mailing list and make sure you have a chance to get one.
thanks agai for all teh feedback.
"and richie..you where trucker caps, your not metal." :lol:
I like this poster. That's a pretty bad ass painting. I saw it as a volcano though.
I kind of agree with some of Max's points, but he's a hardcore fan & has much stronger feelings about it than I would. I don't really think the average fan is going to critique this that deeply. They may not give a shit at all. Every poster on this site is more or less an interpretation of the band by each individual artist. Jason's interpretation is pretty fucking striking, even if it may not be the favorite of some diehard fans.
I'm also one to try & shy away from the traditional stereotypical imagery & attempt something fresh, in my own style. Mike didn't like my Slayer poster either, & I totally understood where he was coming from. Slayer loved it though.
If HOF adds a keyboard player for their next CD, I guess we'll know this poster fucked them up.
Mike, this venue is not a metal venuie...it is like the only venue in town...i saw Yo la tengo there to just a few weeks ago. So this will not destroy their image...because all the shows in this town are promoted by the same guy....you wnna see a show at a different venue you can goto Phoenix or Denver.
thanks for all of the comments for and against...and richie..you where trucker caps, your not metal.
For what its worth to me,
MaxFlo, you continually speak eloquently (definitely not metal by the way) and you've made me really rethink my thoughts on this poster. I on the other hand, do not speak eloquently, thats why this post sounds gay. Carry on.
when Avenged Sevenfold played the Triple Rock, I was sitting through the soundcheck, where they were CONSTANTLY tweaking things (they ended up doing it through their entire set, too). A little more this, a little less this, every single band member, and Erik from Dillinger Four says to me after a drag on his cigarette, "This scene is killing me." Dillinger Four is very much a, "plug in, turn it up and play" band. God bless Dillinger Four.
that is the end of my story... back to the shipwreck at sea...
I agree about the new Atreyu. Its still pretty good in my opinion. The "Suicide Notes" was much more metal. I don't know if they have changed they're live show since last year, but catch it if you can. Lots of synchronized guitar movements and stuf flike that. Its equally awesome, lame, and funny as hell. Good band.
Personaly I think HOF is the best band around right now, but thats just me. It seems hard to imagine not liking a band that sounds like a perfect mix of Motorhead/Venom and Sabbath.
I got the new Atrayu disk this weekend. I wouldn't really consider it to be metal. The Bon Jovi cover made me chuckle though.
I like some of the stuff they show on Uranium. I havn't watched in a while. Thye seem to be showing good stuff on Headbangers Ball these days. Thye even showed HOF videos. Go figure.
My sons like metal and they HATE HOF. They hate all stoner metal in fact.
know jason will understand my comments on this. ...I would never expect jason to do the typical thing.
But if he wanted to it would be done well. He did a poster for a harcore band I was in like 14 years ago. the band was called TICK.
He illustrated this crazy massive tick destroying a city. it was probably the raddest poster I have ever seen.
..Like perfect fisheye perspective and the line work was awesome.
Jason can draw his fucking ass off and if he wanted to he could do a
typical metal poster better than most of the people on this site.
Wether or not somebody thinks they are good has nothing to do with this discussion.
I have heard a couple of songs for the new record and they are as good as any metal songs ever written. Shit is going to be destroyed when the new disc comes out.
Something to keep in mind here. I explained this to Jason a little in private. The underground/ extreme metal scene has a very strange preoccupation with staying "true" and not being a "poser". It is boarderline fanatical. So when posters like this show up for a band that is so highly revered in the scene it creates problems. It creates problems for the everyone involved. See, the fans of HOF in any given town might not realize the band didn't approve this design. It could be viewed in an extremely negative way towards the band. That may seem stupid to most of you, but it is what it is. That is how it works. Evene my stuff is too designerish for alot of the metal scene.
It could very well have an adverse effect on the venues image. If this venue does a lot of metal shows it could also have an adverse effect on the scenes view of the venue.
I would venture to guess that even though many people here like HOF and metal you don't have a very good grasp of the ins and outs of the scene. That is why I allways bring this stuff up. One poster like this could cause a world of grief for a band like HOF in the scene. Like to many designers it might be cool and fun to make a poster that represents you and your stlye regardless of the bands image. I am just saying that the majority of the metal scene doesn't give a fuck. They LIKE the typical metal imagry. Even if you all think it is lame. Thye don't. They don't care about any of this stuff. I speak from experience here. You all may know a ton about the inner politics of indie music or alt music or country or whatever, but I know about this. I am not talking out my ass here.
Of course there are people in the scene who would appreciate this and other "non metal" looking posters for metal bands, but I would guess they represent about 1% of the scene. The 1% who are designers themselves.
I like this as a piece of art. I'd hang this painting in my home. I think it is a poor HOF poster. Jason and I discussed it in private and I explained all of this to him. I think we
"I would never use kittems for HOF . ever.
they have no sense of irony..see..they are 'straight'"
Yeah, I figure YOU wouldn't do it, sorry for dropping your name, but the point is if it WAS done by someone respected and the illustration in question wasn't very not metal whatsoever, there's a good chance it might be more accepted, but apparently because this one makes one question its effectiveness, its failed. thats just my opinion
I think that it is refreshing to see some one NOT use guns, skulls, blood splatters, angels, razor blades, nautical stars, wings and other now cliched art for metal and hardcore bands. That stuff is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it is nice to see someone use something different. Thats why I used a pic of Britney for my Nevermore flyer. I got some shit for that too. This is awesome art. Skulls are gnarly by the way.
now if Kozik did this with cartoon characters or a litter of kittens, everyone would be shitting themselves with delight because of the irony of it and its anti-metal theme. But what about when it falls in the middle, when its not as obvious? This is just trying to do something not as obviouse, as Mr. Cross expressed, cause if this was just another photoshopped image with the band members holding flaming swords, i'll bet there wouldn't be any comments on here- no one would care. I commend trying to do something different while not getting ridiculously out of the 'metal genre'.
I like it. From the thumbnail, I thought it was just a scanned Leroy Neiman illo but upon inspection, it's totally unique. Nice job indeed... Better, in fact because there are no easily discernable skulls, valkyries etc...
damn 60 comments already?
I was in ABQ this weekend while Jason was creating this....helped while he put the first two colors down. It's really stunning in person and I think it can 'pull' in a metal kid.
He also said if this sucked it would somehow be my fault. :-?
HOF's fanbase is not limited to simple-minded metal-heads that only like skulls and swords.
but, i agree that the target audience will probably not notice/care/or comprehend this poster.
not only do i like this poster, but i think it really works for HOF, and i can tell that there was a lot of though and consideration put into it... apparently not that the band or the metal-heads would care.
I like this poster, and i was there for the thought process, and saw it being built.
I like the concept for this poster, ill agree its a little subtle and sort of artsy. I dont like high on fire, so i cant argue it from a fans stand point, but i think that this is unique enough to stand out brillantly against the rest of the shit that albuquerque is putting out there right now.
I would also like to bring up this poster: http://gigposters.com/posters.php?poster=26839 its a poster that Darren Grealish did for Modest Mouse, which i think would be more of an arty band, and he handled it in what i would concider a metal or at least more hardcore fashion. A lot of people commented positivly about that poster, and noted that it had NOTHING to do with modest mouse. Even artsy designers liked it.
So howcome metal style can work for artsy bands, but an artsy style can not work for metal bands?
Hmmm... I'm not sure whether this "speaks to the prototypical HOF fan", but it does come across to me as destructive, chaotic, deadly. Could one not use the same words describing their music? I saw the ship right away, the rough seas, the column of fire and the swarm of ashes. Its a beautiful image. Epic. Again, I could say the same about HOF's music. I think challenging fans' visual recognition is good if done well. I think this is done very well.
Jason if you do an art print of this let me know! I want one.
Wowzers! This is a beautiful design.
As far as it fitting with the band goes, my thinking that there, I think we can all agree, certain aesthetics for every type of music, be it hardcore punk, metal, metal core, etc. And you can use those aesthetics in designs all you want, but you know what you get? Something that blends in with every other black and red poster with blackletter type. This, this is unique, this slaps you in the face and brings you in that much closer than another print with a Jolly Roger would.
Nice Job, Jason. Being the type snob that I am, I would recommend loosening up the tracking on all caps stuff. Just a bit, in the future, no big deal.
I FUCKNG LOVE HIGH ON FIRE.
but this one misses it.
good idea, handled differently it would rule.
like, at night(on black paper)
with your cloudy skull things in ghostly white and a fucked up moon.
and more fire.
I need to feel doomed.
If I were to glance at this on the street it would immediatly say 'emo' or 'art' band to me.
Nothing personal at all. It's a good job. But the information that it would impart would not draw me in as a fan of Metal or 'hard' music.
Oh, and I'm not as thick as my own posters make me seem.
well...i will do my best to sit down with george and actually discuss this and mention you...i really would like to know what they think about it...if its too designed or if it actually strikes a cord.
if anything it caused a debate on the idea of what is good? and i find it to be really relative and not always an easy thing to pinpoint.
mike, i think your assuming alot about me and my taste.
sorry you dont like this...thats fine...i will show the band...if they hate it...fine...i can handle that.
but to say i didnt consider them or their sound is way off...i did...and their audience...me being one of them.
Jason, don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything close to what you just said.
You come from a different place than I dea creativly with your work. I think it works amazingly well for some bands. I don't think it works for this. Jus stating my opinion.
Like it would lame if I did one of my "style" posters for Spoon or Modest Mouse. It just wouldn't work. The people into those bands would never be able to get thier heads around what the fuck I was trying to do. NOT other designers, but the FANS of those bands.
tell that to a nuclear warhead
precission is relative.
i would think anyband would enjoy anyone buying a tiocket and coming...maybe not though...maybe a band would rather no one show up if they were not to fit into a very specific image.
only mike fisher look alikes should go?
I think that rather than worry about not taking the easy solution a designer should worry more about wether it is the correct solution.
I swear if those guys were to read this thread about design solutions regarding thier posters they would kick all of our asses for being pussys.
Well, from my perspective it is more about THE BAND and less about what I feel the easy way out is. Like, I want the band to have people who like them show up at the gig. Like, the people who are into metal should see the poster and conect with something. Like maybe some 14 metal kid has never heard of HOF. He sees this in the record store and what? How does this conect with that kid. What lines are drawn between that kids life and you trying to speak to him? Who cares about the obvious solution other than designers and poster geeks? Nobody. Not one single metal fan I have ever met in my life has discussed design solutions with me other than other poster designers who happen to like metal. It doesn't happen.
This looks like a designer speaking to other designers. Not a designer speaking to metal listeners.
I fell like a fucking broken record on this issue.
Please, go to the show and give some of these to the band. Drop my name to George. Then sit him down and ask him what he thinks of it. Ask him if he feels it represents his band. Does it speak to him or the people he makes and plays music for. I would love to know. I'd be willing to bet I could answer for him.
This isn't anything personal, Jason. This is a very common concern I have with what we do. I see it mainly with posters for metal and hardcore bands. Maybe because that is what I am into.
its tough...i just dont like taking the easy way out...especially with genres with such a strong stereotype of style.
the slayer and this are me trying to interpret their sound without playing into the obvious solutions.
i listened to the art of self defense while designing it and researching a solution...this came to me after much deliberation.
Yeah, those dudes are not going to see a Viking funeral. You never know though, they might.
I wouldn't stop and look at this long enough to relise it was for HOF if I saw it on the street. As cool as the actual design is... it isnt really telling me that it advertises a show for the most intense live metal band you are ever likely to see.
Thats just me though.
Your Slayer poster seemed far more appropriate somehow. I think it was a little more literal.