Art, I thought that's were you were coming from. I think permission for a poster is a must. I have read a few conversations on gigposters about this subject but never really cared to put in my 2 cents. I've only been doing posters for shows for 13 years and have run into a few "bottleggers??" I don't like it! but they are out there and it sucks 'cause they give legit poster makers a bad rep.
As for questioning relationships, i don't know the whole story but it seems to me a harmless mistake. I don't think I was paid to do the poster I was doing it for freinds to help promote the show. I owed dave a favor 'cuase he let me use a Monomen song for the "Live at Emo's" 7" that my label put out around that time. The more (legit) promo for a show the better!! No hard feelings, i just thought it was odd!
lindsay - i've never been about money. i've always been about what's fair. it's hard to discuss this kind of issue without looking like a greedhead. that was never my point.
also, i used this as an example simply because i thought i knew what happened. your comments prove to me i didn't know the whole story and you filled in some BIG holes i was unaware were even there. actually your comments have made me question a few other relationships.
so, anyway, i hope you don't think this was all about attacking you personally or about money in particlular. i don't care about money (except survival) and i like you and love your work. i was only attempting to bring up a sticky issue for discussion. the track of this discussion only points out how touchy a nerve i was going after.
i still stand the same on my base issue about what makes a legit poster and what is a crass affort to cash in on a band's name. it's an issue on this site that will never go away.
Art is right about some things.... (I'm a little late on this discussion 'cause I was riding 2 foot powder that morning in the mountains and that afternoon skatin' a new pool in denver!!! OOWWWWWWW!!!!It was FUN!!! Classic! But anyway! Art is wrong about several things also!
He's right in saying it's wrong to do a poster without permision!! I agree with that strongly! That's why when Tim asked me to do a poster I talked to Dave (The Promoter) and he gave me all the info and a choice of which show to do a poster for, because there were several "estrus invitationals", at different venues. I did the Signal Hill, CA show because it's famous for the old downhill Skateboard contests in the 70's(Tony Alva did the world record for stand up downhill on wide world of sports in '77???? I was litttle then but i remember seeing it on tv. COOL!) But anyway, Art, You will be happy to know that I made no money on that poster cause I sent most of them to the venue or Dave for promotion. As for the numbered one's I have plenty in stock for those who have to have one!
not really.. at least i have seen if you are a band... and you want a poster made... you can and merch it, just if you arent the headliner, make sure your name is not at the top, ie dont cash in on aerosmith if you are andrew wk..
make an andrew wk poster "on tour with aerosmith" in the text below..
but what do i know about promo?
Dave - I agree, moreover, I love the fact that more people can make the posters than less people...I am an equal oppurtunity expression supporter....even if I don't like a poster personally I support everyone in their want, or need, to create.
on one serious note.. i have found doing posters for many promoters that there can be 3 types of posters..
1. through the venue
2. through the band who wants it, ie merch etc.. its their band anyway.. if they want one.
3. record company to promote their band.
ex. black crowes in philly, we promoted it with a poster, and also alan forbes did one with permission by the band.. both are legit to me.
again, I'm with Art. That's a pretty lousy business tactic. You HAVE to go through the proper channels to do the work of promoting a show.
If you're punk, do punk rock posters for bands without the money to pay you, like me!!
pm - it certainly felt that way. sorry. your position is intersting. so, if the warmup act is an unknown local band having their first gig with a superstar (say pearl jam), and they want you to do a poster for them because they think it's cool. you see an opportunity to make some money and do up a huge run and sell them extensively and pocket the profit.
is that ethical? and to whom?
i would like to shift this to the other dialog area and off the comment board.
Art, you made a broad-sweeping generalization earlier in this thread that people who do posters directly for a band and not a promoter, were pirates. Not every situation fits comfortably into your ideas of how business works.
This has nothing to do with the other matter. And no one is/was "defensive and uncomfortable."
ther is a back current in this thread. i recently had some questions for drowning creek and poster mistress that made them defensive and uncomfortable. i can't help but think that has inspired this intense reaction.
when i made my post i made my position clear, and hoped for some sort of discussion to find out where these lines are drawn when it comes to pirating. what i've learned is that they are drawn all over the place - almost a person by person viewpoint. that sort of thing leads quickly to a self-rationalized self-justified process of exploitation. money changes everything.
perhaps a larger discussion (however painful) should be attempted to help figure this out. i see it one way, others see it completely different. i'm sure the promoter, the bands and the law all see it from their own perspective as well. i'm trying to figure out what is ethical and what is not.
Man, this is sooo cool, if I can get the support act for a MAJOR bands tour to let me do a poster for them as merch.... hehehehe cha ching. This lil line of chat has helped me.
The Roling Eyes would be an ok name for a band...
are you rolling your eyes at me? if so, please explain. i was speaking to the anonymous skin about art's comments on the curtain poster. i don't give a shit about this poster and alleged pirating. i sympathize with jeff and his efforts.
My 2 cents...
I just did a poster for a friend in Asphalt Blaster for a tour headlined by Hermano. Ted asked me to do it so he could put them on his merch table and we could sell a few to cover our costs. He has always wanted us to do a poster for him and he finally thought he had a tour worth commemorating with a poster.
Is Ted a pirate? NO. Am I a pirate for printing them for him? NO. His Band, His merch. If the label did a poster for the tour, great. It would in no way be "tarnished" by Ted producing a poster to sell.
Art, comparing someone "bootlegging" t-shirts without permission to a band member having a poster done is a crock...no comparison.
The problem I have with the music industry as a whole is they totally ignore the fact that people want these posters. The Industry rarely pays to produce them..too much trouble, too expensive etc, but let one of us do something for the fans (and what little we stick in our pockets) and we become pirates. I'll side with the artists and the fans who support us everytime. Screw the industry. I'm always willing to work legitimate merch contracts, but those are rare and extremely difficult to get nailed down, yet the artform flourishes despite it.
We don't make much on these posters, hell we barely break even, but we do them anyway. And I will continue to do them as well as Lindsey and many others.
If you want to question "ethics" look no further than the industry itself. I'd hate to tell you how many times I had the door slammed in my face and told that what I did was not worth the time. I have buyers that will argue otherwise.
But what do I know? I'm just a 40 year old photoshop abuser and printer...and proud "pirate" if you want to call me that. Your word, not mine.
i knew i'd strike a nerve with that comment.
here's how i see it: if the guy who is putting out records by the bands, footing the bill for this promo tour (for his own and for his friends' bands), has the name of his label on the poster, is paying for this crap wants to have one person do a tour poster (that he pays for and is specifically NOT for sale), then yes, that makes all the others pirates. sorry. how else do you look at it? for dave, he doesn't like it when evrybody else turns the whole shebang into a swagfest and ignores the money-losing effort to promote the bands he's trying to help. he thinks its sleazy, and i do too.
now, dave considers lindsey friend, and tim kerr is one of his very dearest friends of all. when he found out about this poster he raised a fit. tim had no right to become a rep for estrus (especially at that time) and commission posters without dave's ok. it's a matter of respect and manners.
as for the california poster, that was strictly a swag affort with no connection to estrus. totally unauthorized.
look at it this way: it's as if you put on a concert. you commission a cool poster to advertise and give away and promote the show, booked the club, paid the bands,flew them down. say to it everybody was fed and fucked and had a good time (well, maybe not fucked). then somebody shows up with a t-shirt that promotes the show that they want to sell at the door to line their own pockets with cash. would that be ok by you? some guy shows up and wants to cash in on your good community effort? i'd say, ethically, no.
there is no difference with these posters that are unauthorized by the promoter of the show. otherwise, what's to stop anyone from from putting out a poster for any event anywhere just because they want to cash in?
oh, i guess that's already going on, isn't it?
Lindsey is Punk as fuck...as a younger not so fat me who used to skateboard all around austin ollie-ing crosswalks with glee I was bombarded with SWAMP propaganda everywhere, on trashcans, in alleys, everywhere - a precusor to the prodigiousness of Feary...but Kuhn was much darker in his visual satire...more Texan!
So, now the rule is you can only do a poster if the promoter says so?
So people on this site who are doing posters for bands who said it was cool are all, "PIRATES."
Wow, it feels cool to be a pirate - where's my eyepatch?!
this is a poster that was produced without permission from the promoter. lindsey printed it up after a guy in one of the bands (tim kerr) said, sure, it's ok. so it was produced without crider's permission. i did the official one for the promoter. this one and the one produced in california (i forget who did it) were essentially pirates. sorry, guys - just the facts. i hope you made lotsa money.